TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

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AndyChuo
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by AndyChuo »

jello_moto wrote:
Mildahp wrote:i agree with this...509 seams to be in link aggregation (trunk L8 it says) in HP pro curve 8G but i am getting terible speed...(start at 120mb/sec and in 5 sec drop down to 15mb/sec) in qnap is sellected link aggregation switch is sellected for link aggregation dual ethernet on each site Cat6 on desktop 2x500gb hard drives in raid 0 Qnap 509 upgraded procesor+RAM environmental= desktop windows7 X64 2.66GHz quad core 8GB RAM + Macbook pro 2.53MHz 4GB ram ...................... please what could be possible wrong?? have checked all + have changed all cable for CAT6e UTP (dearest ones) thank Milan
Read the thread from the beginning. The version of 802.3ad that QNAP has implemented does NOT do channel bonding it does failover and load balancing only to different destinations.
hi Jello_moto,

I have spent quite some time on the net and found some whitepaper/forum threads from Dell addressing such problem and I thought you might be interested reading.

Link Aggregation (802.3ad) from Dell's online commuinity
http://en.community.dell.com/forums/p/1 ... =555&s=biz

Network Link Aggregation Practices
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/po ... mes-OE.pdf

Let me know what you think on these?

Andy
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by jello_moto »

Andy, the issue is that QNAP does not have IEEE 802.1AX-2008 implemented. I have said in every message that its channel bonding. Please read this Wikipedia article to familiarize yourself with channel bonding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_aggregation.
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by schumaku »

There is a big difference from a feature not implemented (IEEE 802.1AX-2008) from what you imply with the subject "TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)". QNAP offers very clearly IEEE 802.3ad support under Network -> Port Trunking. Here the associated text from the online help:

IEEE 802.3ad: Creates aggregation groups that share the same speed and duplex settings. Utilizes all slaves in the active aggregator according to the 802.3ad specification. This mode provides load balancing and fault tolerance but requires a switch that supports IEEE 802.3ad Dynamic Link Aggregation with correct LACP mode configured.

Citing your Wikipedia link: "Most implementations now conform to what used to be clause 43 of IEEE 802.3-2005 Ethernet standard, usually still referred to by its working group name of "IEEE 802.3ad". "

Full IEEE 802.1AX-2008 would be nice for some specific applications, e.g. serving a single iSCSI initiator.

-Kurt.
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by jello_moto »

This is very confusing for customers. Neither the QNAP marketing materials nor the documentation clearly state that their devices "partially" support the IEEE 802.3ad implementation. Because it DOES NOT DO LINK AGGREGATION as stated in the help file.


If QNAP technical support thinks it would be more productive for me to start a "QNAP please implement IEEE 802.1AX-2008" thread, then I will happily do so....
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by PowerMAC »

Here's an interesting article about it as well: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/l ... ggregation

Quote:

"A final interesting aspect about a LAG is it doesn't increase throughput for individual data flows. Each data flow is limited to the bandwidth of a single link in the LAG. In a LAG with two or more 1 Gbps links, the best throughput an individual data flow will see is 1 Gbps. The real value of LAG is in increasing total (or aggregate) throughput between devices."

And some further discussion about the results: http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showthread.php?t=2490


So should 802.3ad LACP between the NAS and a client give higher than 1 Gbps throughput or not?
“Count the black dots, recount to confirm…” http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/lum_scGrid/index.html
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by jello_moto »

PowerMAC wrote:Here's an interesting article about it as well: http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/lanwan/l ... ggregation

Quote:

"A final interesting aspect about a LAG is it doesn't increase throughput for individual data flows. Each data flow is limited to the bandwidth of a single link in the LAG. In a LAG with two or more 1 Gbps links, the best throughput an individual data flow will see is 1 Gbps. The real value of LAG is in increasing total (or aggregate) throughput between devices."

And some further discussion about the results: http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showthread.php?t=2490


So should 802.3ad LACP between the NAS and a client give higher than 1 Gbps throughput or not?
If the the QNAP did link aggregation and your workstation had teamed gigabit nics (like intel for example) you could get sub 2 gigabit throughput.
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by schumaku »

jello_moto wrote:If the the QNAP did link aggregation and your workstation had teamed gigabit nics (like intel for example) you could get sub 2 gigabit throughput.
Please try to be exact, even if the Wiki text is raising the impression that anything but IEEE 802.1AX-2008 is not link aggregation.

QNAP does support link aggregation according to the IEEE 802.3-2005 Ethernet standard, referred to as "IEEE 802.3ad". This allows to reach an aggregated bandwidth of up to 2 Gb/s with two GbE links, if at least two destinations (MAC addresses) are served - this is typical when multiple clients are served.

Different with the newer IEEE 802.1AX-2008 (a standard available since November 2008), it is feasible reaching the full aggregated bandwidth in a direct connection, say a single iSCSI initiator talking to the iSCSI target on the QNAP NAS. Disputable how realistic this request really is in the majority of NAS or NAS-SAN deployments.

Reality check: I strongly doubt the TS-509 you are complaining about here does ever reach the bandwidth that there would be an advantage with IEEE 802.1AX-2008 - it comes near, but does not exceed, no matter by iSCSI, nfs, cifs, afs, ftp, ... This might be different on the high-end TS-809, and bigger units probably to reach the market.

This should ring the bells in the QNAP PM offices, looking towards the implementation of IEEE 802.1AX-2008.

-Kurt.
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by PowerMAC »

jello_moto wrote:Andy, the issue is that QNAP does not have IEEE 802.1AX-2008 implemented. I have said in every message that its channel bonding. Please read this Wikipedia article to familiarize yourself with channel bonding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_aggregation.
jello, jello ... in the QNAP documentation there is NO reference to IEEE 802.1 AX-2008, I could only find references to 802.3ad !!! (just like most other NAS manufacturers have done)

What's more, the following text is from that Wiki page you linked to:
"Most implementations now conform to what used to be clause 43 of IEEE 802.3-2005 Ethernet standard, usually still referred to by its working group name of "IEEE 802.3ad". The definition of link aggregation has since moved to a standalone IEEE 802.1AX standard".

So in fact, you are WRONGLY accusing and mistakenly complaining about a feature of which QNAP never said it had implemented because YOU YOURSELF did not fully understand the difference between IEEE 802.1 AX-2008 and 802.3ad

If you want the full implementation of IEEE 802.1 AX-2008 I suggest you make a request for this as a New feature that you want.

I think you made a pretty big fool of yourself by making such a big scene over nothing - you really should apologize to QNAP.
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by PowerMAC »

schumaku wrote:There is a big difference from a feature not implemented (IEEE 802.1AX-2008) from what you imply with the subject "TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)". QNAP offers very clearly IEEE 802.3ad support under Network -> Port Trunking. Here the associated text from the online help:

IEEE 802.3ad: Creates aggregation groups that share the same speed and duplex settings. Utilizes all slaves in the active aggregator according to the 802.3ad specification. This mode provides load balancing and fault tolerance but requires a switch that supports IEEE 802.3ad Dynamic Link Aggregation with correct LACP mode configured.

Citing your Wikipedia link: "Most implementations now conform to what used to be clause 43 of IEEE 802.3-2005 Ethernet standard, usually still referred to by its working group name of "IEEE 802.3ad". "

-Kurt.

Exactly!
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by jello_moto »

schumaku wrote: Reality check: I strongly doubt the TS-509 you are complaining about here does ever reach the bandwidth that there would be an advantage with IEEE 802.1AX-2008 - it comes near, but does not exceed, no matter by iSCSI, nfs, cifs, afs, ftp, ... This might be different on the high-end TS-809, and bigger units probably to reach the market.

-Kurt.
Reverse reality check. I have a fast dual core CPU and 4 gigs of RAM in my TS-509. I have no doubt it could saturate a 2 gigabit link with ease.... :)
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by P3R »

I see that the Wikipedia article tells us there are different standards, but I can't find anything in it explaining the technical differences between 802.3ad and 802.1ax. I'd like to see, preferably described in a way that's understandable to a mere human being (the standards themselves usually aren't), that 802.1ax really can overcome the speed limitation on a single session.

Assuming that 802.1ax have this ability, what switches (or any other equipment) is available that supports 802.1ax (preferably with a SOHO or SMB pricetag)? Right now I haven't found anything, regardless of price, and there's not much point in Qnap supporting it now if nobody else does yet.
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by schumaku »

Hi P3R,
Let's try it very simple:

NAS[MAC:AB:76:54:43:21:00]---Switch---[MAC:00:01:23:45:67:AB]Client
Pure Gbe 1GB/s on "-"

NAS[MAC:AB:76:54:43:21:00]===Switch(LACP)===[MAC:00:01:23:45:67:AB]Client
802.1ab: 1 Gb/s
802.1ax: 2 Gb/s << this is what the user is looking for!

NAS[MAC:AB:76:54:43:21:00]===Switch(LACP)....at least two clients with different MAC addresses
802.1ab: 2 Gb/s, but not a single one exceeding 1 Gb/s even if also connected using 802.1ab

Your comment regarding to availability and pricing of equipment supporting 802.1ax:
a) Can't agree more. Form many home or SMB a managed switch witl LACP support is to expensive already.
b) QNAP NAS are used more and more in larger environments, e.g. for substituting expensive SAN equipment for virtualisation using iSCSI/NFS transport.

-Kurt.
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by P3R »

schumaku wrote:802.1ax: 2 Gb/s << this is what the user is looking for!
Yes, I do understand that is what he wants. I was looking for a reference outside this thread that 802.1ax will in fact achieve that. I want to learn and was hoping for a bit more (but hopefully not to) technical explanation of how 802.1ax differs to be able understand the technology myself.
b) QNAP NAS are used more and more in larger environments, e.g. for substituting expensive SAN equipment for virtualisation using iSCSI/NFS transport.
Yes, I can understand that too. But what equipment (regardless of pricing if necessary) does support 802.1ax today?
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by schumaku »

Hey, we are on the same lane...
P3R wrote:But what equipment (regardless of pricing if necessary) does support 802.1ax today?
Not many. Certainly some HP ProCurve GbE switches, Cisco Nexus (in the "common" networking Cisco is still perfering the proprietary PAgP, which can be switched to LACP per module or switch base only), some Cisco WLAN switches for the uplinks, plus some gear used in ISP backbones ways off from what most QNAP users can afford.

The main stream GbE switch manufacturers don't offer 802.1AX yet - very likely because of the fabric and base firmware manufacturers like Realtek, Intel & Co. don't offer it - yet.

-Kurt.
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Re: TS-509 pro link aggregation problem (STILL not fixed!!!)

Post by P3R »

I don't find 802.1ax in any of the HP Procurve Core or distribution switches (approx. pricerange €4000-€40000) and the only Cisco product I find supporting it is the 5500 Series Wireless Controller.

Jello_moto, what networking equipment do you intend to use if/when 802.1ax get implemented in your TS-509 Pro?
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