Music/Sonos

Discussion on setting up QNAP NAS products.
Post Reply
philhunt
New here
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:52 pm

Music/Sonos

Post by philhunt »

I have a load of CDs at home. I want to:

1. Copy to my NAS TS-221, uncompressed.
2. Have all track information available along with the artwork.
3. Link to my Sonos system so I can play through Sonos.

What I used to do was store all my music on an iMerge S3000. Gracenotes provided all track info when I copied over a CD. I used to backup this data to my NAS.

It turns out that if I just point my Sonos at the backup on the NAS I can play my music :)
But it means that to add a new CD I have to copy it to my iMerge, then backup ALL my CDs, an overnight process. And the artwork does not show up in Sonos. So there must be a better, easier, more direct way to achieve what I want.

Anyone know how?
Thanks.
User avatar
pwilson
Guru
Posts: 22533
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:20 am
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada (UTC-08:00)

Re: Music/Sonos

Post by pwilson »

philhunt wrote:I have a load of CDs at home. I want to:

1. Copy to my NAS TS-221, uncompressed.
2. Have all track information available along with the artwork.
3. Link to my Sonos system so I can play through Sonos.

What I used to do was store all my music on an iMerge S3000. Gracenotes provided all track info when I copied over a CD. I used to backup this data to my NAS.

It turns out that if I just point my Sonos at the backup on the NAS I can play my music :)
But it means that to add a new CD I have to copy it to my iMerge, then backup ALL my CDs, an overnight process. And the artwork does not show up in Sonos. So there must be a better, easier, more direct way to achieve what I want.

Anyone know how?
Thanks.
I believe your Sonos will work with any of the numerous DLNA Servers available on the NAS. I believe Briain our resident "wee dram of Scotch"/Twonkmedia specialist will probably assist you with this. You chose a descriptive "Subject" for your message, so he can't miss this thread

Patrick M. Wilson
Victoria, BC Canada
QNAP TS-470 Pro w/ 4 * Western Digital WD30EFRX WD Reds (RAID5) - - Single 8.1TB Storage Pool FW: QTS 4.2.0 Build 20151023 - Kali Linux v1.06 (64bit)
Forums: View My Profile - Search My Posts - View My Photo - View My Location - Top Community Posters
QNAP: Turbo NAS User Manual - QNAP Wiki - QNAP Tutorials - QNAP FAQs

Please review: When you're asking a question, please include the following.
User avatar
Briain
Experience counts
Posts: 1749
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:56 pm
Location: Edinburgh (Scotland)

Re: Music/Sonos

Post by Briain »

Hi

Hmmmm; tricky! :)

I've worked on a few Linn Kivor units (they've now been obsolete for a good few years), which were of a similar 'concept' to the iMerge, but likely worked in a different way. One if my friends has worked on iMerge, so I'll ask him if he can give me any info about them as I've never worked on one, myself.

The Kivor was - at the time - a very upmarket and nice sounding system, which worked by ripping CD's to WAV files, then obtaining meta form somewhere (maybe also Gracenotes) and building up a database of metadata (it contained a bunch of nice DAC's and a bunch of RCA sockets to feed analogue signals to various rooms). When extracting music from a Kivor (to change to a NAS and media player setup) I tended to FTP all the wav files and database to a NAS, then use a script (supplied by Linn) to convert the WAV files to FLAC files, then it tagged them by using the information from the kivor's database, thus ending up with a tagged FLAC collection as opposed to a WAV and databases proprietary system.

That you can back up your iMerge to a NAS and that the Sonos can see the files (and read the metadata) implies to me that it might instead just be ripping them to mp3 files (as opposed to WAV files). Either that, or it's doing something similar to a Kivor and the backup is using a script to convert WAV files to FLAC files and tag them in the same way that I described for the Linn script (but I'd highly doubt that). I thus suspect it's actually the former, and thus it's just ripping them disks to lossy mp3 format and tagging them at the time of the rip/encoding process, and your backup is simply a copy of the mp3 files as they exist in the iMerge.

Assuming my assumptions are correct, the most obvious way would seem to be to carry on with your current backup strategy (which is sound), but instead of mapping the Sonos to the NAS share, map it to the iMerge share and it will index the mp3 files on the iMerge. So, when you rip a new disk, it will compress it to mp3 format in the iMerge (as usual) and then you simply update the music index in the Sonos (rescan the library) such that you can play it a few minutes later.

Of course, that depends on my assumption being correct about the iMerge ripping/encoding to mp3 (which format of files do you see in your backup?) and it does not address the art issue. Mapping to the iMerge share also assumes the iMerge even provides a network share (it might not) or there is an option to turn that feature on (or hack it on via the command line; assuming they even let you have SSH access to it).

Ultimately, the better solution might be to decide on which system you wish to use and sticking with it. If you now have a few Sonos units in the house, and if the iMerge does encode to mp3, it might be worth re-ripping your entire collection to FLAC files as that wll give you a sound quality enhancement to the Sonos rooms. To be honest, it won't be a huge difference via a Sonos, but it is audibly better. In addition, for your main system (say the Sonos connected to the HiFi in your lounge) you can add an external DAC to that Sonos and you'll find (assuming you get a half decent DAC) that it makes quite a difference to the sound. That certainly would let you hear now much better the FLAC files sounded and if that's a potential option for your future system, it makes the re-ripping option even more attractive (and, of course, it solves the missing artwork problem).

Sorry, without knowing the iMerge, I am making lots of assumptions. What I can say is that a Sonos with a decent DAC sounds not too far behind something like a Linn Majik DSI (which was a £2500 media player) so it is worth doing if sound quality is high up your list for the main room. Of course, it means you'd then have to rip CDs for the NAS/Sonos system and again for the iMerge system, but to be honest, I'd be tempted to cut mt ties to the iMerge and migrate to NAS/Sonos (and back up a NAS FLAC collection).

How you move next depends on what your priorities are, what you currently feed from the iMerge (ie how important it is in your system hierarchy), how many Sonos units you have (is that the main source of your music), etc, etc. Maybe first do some research to find out if the iMerge can be accessed (and it's contents be made available as a network share) as mapping the Sonos's to that would solve the new rip problem, right away.

Bri

NB That the iMerge backup takes an overnight run to complete indicates to me that it's not an incremental backup (eg rsync) or it would only take a few minutes or backup the changes (new album) rather than overwrite the entire backup. That means there's little point in using an automated artwork grabber to add a jpg to each album on the NAS backup, as the nightly iMerge backup run would just overwrite them with art-free copies of what's on the iMerge, so that's another reason why I'd question persisting with the iMerge as opposed to just moving to a NAS and Sonos system (over and above the sound quality improvements attainable by moving to a FLAC collection).
TS-119, 1 X Seagate ~~ TS-219, 2 X Seagate (R1) ~~ TS-453A, 2 X 3 TB WD Red (R1) ~~ TS-659, 5 X 1 TB Hitachi Enterprise (R6)
APC Smart-UPS 750
philhunt
New here
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:52 pm

Re: Music/Sonos

Post by philhunt »

Thanks Bri

The iMerge has stored all the music uncompressed as .wav files. In the same directory there are some .xml files and the artwork is stored in the same directory as .jpeg files. The music is ultimately played via a high-end hifi system.

Functionally, the iMerge does everything I want: uncompressed, high quality, visible as a network share to Sonos, Gracenotes track labelling. The only problem is it runs quite hot and overheats my cupboard which also holds my NAS. So I only turn the iMerge on (which is as slow as rebooting a Windows 7 PC) when I want to use it, so I use it less than I otherwise would.

So I want to dump the iMerge completely and migrate 100% to the NAS, but retaining all the nice features of the iMerge that I just mentioned.

Phil
User avatar
Briain
Experience counts
Posts: 1749
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:56 pm
Location: Edinburgh (Scotland)

Re: Music/Sonos

Post by Briain »

Hi Phil

From what you've said, the iMerge sounds like it operates in a similar sort of way to a Kivor. I quite liked the Kivor, but it is a basically an old, huge and noisy (and power hungry) Linux PC, so as you say, it's not the best of things to leave switched on (unless you upgrade the bearings in your electricity meter). I've used Linn's script to extract and tag music from a few Kivors (one of my friends is a Linn dealer, so I've done that for a few of his customers) and they are now using Qnaps and Linn DS as their main system (and one also has a few Sonos units dotted about the house).

I went down the Linn DS route with FLAC files on a Qnap and using MinimServer (as opposed to Twonky). I also had a Sonos, so instead of using the AlbumArtist tag, I used the ensemble tag as Sonos recognises that as AlbumArtist (and you can configure MinimServer to show ensemble as AlbumArtist) so my music collection is now compatible with both. The only downside of Sonos was that it's limited to 16 bit material, and I now have a lot of high resolution files, so after a certain tipping point, it became an issue and I bought another Linn DS unit to replace it.

In your case, what you next do depends on what you want to end up with. The iMerge sounds like a cool unit, but if you have to boot it up before using it (and that takes ages), you'll likely have gone off listening to the tune by the time it's ready (that's what I found when I used to use a PC to control my own system; by the time it had booted up, I'd given up and switched the TV on, instead). If you want to end up with Sonos in most rooms and Sonos plus DAC in the main room (or even a better streaming device, like Linn or one of its competitors) then it's worth considering FLAC as a format; most systems will recognise FLAC files, and if not, MinimServer can be set to serve them as WAV files (transcoding FLAC to WAV on the fly) which is how mine currently is set up to work.

Bri
TS-119, 1 X Seagate ~~ TS-219, 2 X Seagate (R1) ~~ TS-453A, 2 X 3 TB WD Red (R1) ~~ TS-659, 5 X 1 TB Hitachi Enterprise (R6)
APC Smart-UPS 750
philhunt
New here
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:52 pm

Re: Music/Sonos

Post by philhunt »

Thanks again Bri

You've set me off in a whole new direction. As you've successfully used QNAP plus Sonos, I'll probably try to implement precisely what worked for you. The problem is, this'll take me a while. I installed MinimServer but it doesn't seem to do anything - maybe it's not set up right? The MinimServer instructions leave a lot to be desired. And I have no idea how to create .flac files or rip CD's directly onto the QNAP. Could you (or anyone else) point me at any helpful websites with more info?

Thanks
Phil

Incidentally, I looked up some of the Linn kit - I used to have an LP12 years ago. First thing I saw was priced at 50K. On that basis I take back the description of my hifi as high-end. It's not in that league.
xavierh
Experience counts
Posts: 1118
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:15 am
Location: Denton, Texas

Re: Music/Sonos

Post by xavierh »

just my two cents on this...

i too have a sizable collection of musics mostly from CD's that i have converted to Apple Lossless format. the complete Itunes directory on my mac gets replicated on a regular basis on one of my NAS devices for backup purposes.that copy also brings the itunes library files (xml) to the NAs. i then setup sonos to regularly scan my library for changes and update its library (including playlists) so that i can play music.

all my music files have the metadata including artwork embedded in them so the sonos can then retrieve it in its interface.

having said that I used Itunes basically to rip the CD's to apple lossless format and after i was done just used sometime like FreeFileSync to copy the whole itunes directory on the mac to the NAS.

i still think that the best way of going about this is to store the files on the NAS and have the Sonos pull music from it.

QNAP TVS-951xQTS 5.0.0.1986 build 20220324 OS Storage Pool: Samsung 860 EVO 250GB SSD x 4 (RAID 5), Data Storage Pool: WD WD30EFRX (Red) 3TB x 4 (RAID 5), 16GB RAM WD Easystore 10TB External USB 3.0 Services: SMB, Appletalk, QPKG: Container Station, HBS 3
QNAP TS-453AQTS 5.0.0.1986 build 20220324 Services: SMB, HBS 3
Network: UDM, UDM Beacon, Unifi 8 Port Switch x 3, Flex Mini Switch, In Wall AP
User avatar
Briain
Experience counts
Posts: 1749
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:56 pm
Location: Edinburgh (Scotland)

Re: Music/Sonos

Post by Briain »

philhunt wrote:Thanks again Bri

You've set me off in a whole new direction. As you've successfully used QNAP plus Sonos, I'll probably try to implement precisely what worked for you. The problem is, this'll take me a while. I installed MinimServer but it doesn't seem to do anything - maybe it's not set up right? The MinimServer instructions leave a lot to be desired. And I have no idea how to create .flac files or rip CD's directly onto the QNAP. Could you (or anyone else) point me at any helpful websites with more info?

Thanks
Phil

Incidentally, I looked up some of the Linn kit - I used to have an LP12 years ago. First thing I saw was priced at 50K. On that basis I take back the description of my hifi as high-end. It's not in that league.
Hi Phil

You don't need MinimServer or Twonky for a Sonos (I expect you realise that, but I thought I'd better post it to clarify the issue for other readers) as Sonos indexes the music using its own proprietary system and stores the database in the Sonos boxes. Of course, Sonos can also use a DLNA or UPnP server (like Twonky or MinimServer, respectively) but though that has some advantages (like the ability to create a custom menu in MinimServer) it has some disadvantages, as well (the media players don't provide gapless playback, so tracks that run into each other will now have a brief gap between them). Also, the hassle with using a UPnP/DLNA server with a media player is that it needs continuous communication between the control point and the player; if that link is lost, the music stops (and maintaining it also trashes the battery life in the control point). Sonos and Linn units are both capable of running in that 'industry standard' mode, but they are also capable of running in 'different' modes (Sonos as described above, and Linn using an enhanced set of extensions to the standard, but still using a standard UPnP/DLNA server, as opposed to storing the media meta within the units) such that both can play 'gapplessly' when used in their optimal modes (okay, gaplessly is not a real word, but it really should be). :)

Bri

NB Linn do also make some affordable stuff, like the Sneaky and Majik ranges, but the best 'value' (sound per pound) is the Akurate range (miles better than the Sneaky and Majik range) but yes, being a total music nutter, I have the top kit (though as I worked in that vey industry for a while - albeit ages ago - I didn't pay the full price for it).
TS-119, 1 X Seagate ~~ TS-219, 2 X Seagate (R1) ~~ TS-453A, 2 X 3 TB WD Red (R1) ~~ TS-659, 5 X 1 TB Hitachi Enterprise (R6)
APC Smart-UPS 750
User avatar
T-bird
Easy as a breeze
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:49 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Music/Sonos

Post by T-bird »

xavierh wrote:just my two cents on this...

i too have a sizable collection of musics mostly from CD's that i have converted to Apple Lossless format. the complete Itunes directory on my mac gets replicated on a regular basis on one of my NAS devices for backup purposes.that copy also brings the itunes library files (xml) to the NAs. i then setup sonos to regularly scan my library for changes and update its library (including playlists) so that i can play music.

all my music files have the metadata including artwork embedded in them so the sonos can then retrieve it in its interface.

having said that I used Itunes basically to rip the CD's to apple lossless format and after i was done just used sometime like FreeFileSync to copy the whole itunes directory on the mac to the NAS.

i still think that the best way of going about this is to store the files on the NAS and have the Sonos pull music from it.
Agree to most of it even that i'm not a Sonos owner
I'm not a mac user so I use flac (also lossless) instead of apple lossless
The problem with wav files is that it has poor tag support for metadata, that's why many people uses cue sheets to provide that

If you set up your Sonos to read an SMB share holding you music collection and it can't show album artwork it's maybe an naming issue.
All music media players I have used understands folder.jpg, cover.jpg and in some cases <albumname>.jpg

Can't see any benefits to introduce an upnp/dlna server in this, the only thing is if you have a receiver with an upnp/dlna client so you can skip the Sonos completely
Sorry for my poor english.

TS-219P QTS 4.1.3, 2 x Hitachi Deskstar 5K3000 HDS5C3020ALA632 2TB in Raid1 ext4
QPKG: LMS 7.9, 1 x SB Touch, 1 x SB Radio
IPKG: Optware
Boxee Box with boxee+ 1.60 and Kodi 14.1 Helix
Win7 x64 Home Premium
Lenovo Q190 with Windows 10 and Kodi 15.1 Isengard
Post Reply

Return to “Turbo Station Installation & Setup”