TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

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celox
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TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

Post by celox »

HI All,

New to the forum, recently brought a second had QNAP TS459 Pro.
Currently running perfectly fine with 4 x Hitachi HDS723020BLA642 MN6O.

Please leave a post of the NAS you are using and also the drives you are using that is within the 4tb or 5tb size. Want to see what has worked for most people here running QNAPs... maybe also leave a little most info if you ran into any issues with certain drives.

Looking to upgrade to the new 4tb or 5tb drives and the most recent on that has caught my eye is the Toshiba MD04ACA500 (5tb) or MD04ACA400 (4tb). I read that Toshiba now owns a certain portion of WD/HGST 3.5" drives factories and HDD plans. Has anyone have any experience with this drives and can comment on if they work well or not? I know and read that most people recommend the WD RED NAS Drives, however from researching the internet and reading around i came across this review from Blackblaze that writes up reviews about the HDD they use in their data centre. Seeing that Toshiba is now somewhat HGST/WD I am curious to see if anyone has used any of these drives in their NAS?

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/best-hard-drive/

I am also looking for a way to confirm if my TS-459 Pro can take more than the current 2tb drives. Anyone have any tips on this?

Many thanks everyone.
Cel
Ron1963
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Re: TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

Post by Ron1963 »

1x TS251, 1x TS251D, 1x TS253
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pwilson
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Re: TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

Post by pwilson »

celox wrote:I am also looking for a way to confirm if my TS-459 Pro can take more than the current 2tb drives. Anyone have any tips on this?
Ron1963 wrote:https://www.qnap.com/i/en/product_x_gra ... at=1&II=70 gives you all the supported HDD's
Ron1963 has already referred you to the TS-459 Pro HDD Compatibility List, so all I want to add is that you should probably not purchase any drive larger than 5TB.

Your TS-459 Pro still uses legacy Storage Volumes, so it can not be "expanded" past 16.0TB. If you create a RAID5 array with 4 * 5TB drives it will give you a Volume of 13.5TB (ie <16.0TB), which will provide lots of storage. (You can not "expand" to 4 * 6TB drives, as this would create a 16.2TB volume).

HGST, WD, and Seagate all manufacturer drives specifically designed for RAID/NAS use. I won't purchase anything made by Seagate myself, but I am having great luck with WD Reds, as HGST did not offer NAS specific drives when I bought my WD Reds. If I was purchasing drives today, I would look at NAS drives manufactured by either HGST (a WD Company), or WD.

Good luck with your purchasing research. Please consult the TS-459 Pro HDD Compatibility List for assistance in finding your new drives, as already recommended by Ron1963.
Last edited by pwilson on Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Patrick M. Wilson
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celox
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Re: TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

Post by celox »

Ron1963 wrote:https://www.qnap.com/i/en/product_x_gra ... at=1&II=70 gives you all the supported HDD's
Thanks Ron, I saw and read through the list, didn't see the Toshiba drives in there hence decided to post in the forum to see if anyone has actually used these drives. I get the feeling that most people in here would be sick of hearing posts about what drives to use and etc... but it would be nice if people would either recomened what their own preferences are or rant a little about what not to use.
Your TS-459 Pro still uses legacy Storage Volumes, so it can not be "expanded" past 16.0TB. If you create a RAID5 array with 4 * 5TB drives it will give you a Volume of 13.5TB (ie <16.0TB), which will provide lots of storage. (You can not "expand" to 4 * 6TB drives, as this would create a 16.2TB volume).
Thanks Pwilson! Im glad i posted and asked about this because I couldn't find the spec details of my TS459 Pro. Wouldn't have known that its max capacity would be 16TB because of hardware limitations. I just presumed that being a software NAS I can place any sized drive in there and it will run at the available Max capacity. Is there anyway for me to check the hardware or chip that handles the storage volumes?? Is it possible to upgrade this chip yourself? Or if i want something over the 16tb size I will need to sell this NAS and buy a new one?

I might do a little more research on these Toshiba drives, some articles say that they are the same as the HGST drives but runs a slightly different firmware. ill post back to what i find and if i end up using a 4th toshiba drive.
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Re: TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

Post by pwilson »

celox wrote:Thanks Pwilson! Im glad i posted and asked about this because I couldn't find the spec details of my TS459 Pro. Wouldn't have known that its max capacity would be 16TB because of hardware limitations.


Actually you probably can create a "new" Volume over 16.0TB. You simply can't "expand" to get there.

celox wrote:I just presumed that being a software NAS I can place any sized drive in there and it will run at the available Max capacity. Is there anyway for me to check the hardware or chip that handles the storage volumes?? Is it possible to upgrade this chip yourself? Or if i want something over the 16tb size I will need to sell this NAS and buy a new one?


As stated already you can build a Volume over 16.0TB, you just can't use "expansion" to get there. I don't recommend doing so, simply because of the grief required to make it. QNAP models that use the "SMB" Firmware, don't have this same 16.0TB "expansion" limit. (Check out the first page of the "SMB" version of the "QNAP Turbo NAS User Manual" for the models).

I believe your TS-459 Pro uses an Intel Atom D510 1.66 GHz Dual-Core processor. I also believe it uses an Intel® I/O Controller Hub 9 (ICH9) for it's southbridge, so this is where you'll find information about the SATA interface.

When it is time to upgrade simply purchase a new QNAP that uses SMB Firmware, and then you can relegate the TS-459 Pro to a Backup destination for your future NAS-to-NAS Backups. This is probably the easiest method of backing up a NAS.

Patrick M. Wilson
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QNAP TS-470 Pro w/ 4 * Western Digital WD30EFRX WD Reds (RAID5) - - Single 8.1TB Storage Pool FW: QTS 4.2.0 Build 20151023 - Kali Linux v1.06 (64bit)
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celox
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Re: TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

Post by celox »

As stated already you can build a Volume over 16.0TB, you just can't use "expansion" to get there. I don't recommend doing so, simply because of the grief required to make it. QNAP models that use the "SMB" Firmware, don't have this same 16.0TB "expansion" limit. (Check out the first page of the "SMB" version of the "QNAP Turbo NAS User Manual" for the models).
Okay, let me clarify this so that I know what my options are. What your saying here is that the NAS does support over 16TB volume setups, but just that the hardware does not allow or is not capable to use the Expansion method to get there. If I were to buy 5TB or 6TB drives, I can create a raid 5 to run either 20tb or 24tb volumes depending on the drive I buy?
I don't recommend doing so, simply because of the grief required to make it.
By grief do you mean having to move the data off the NAS to a new temp location, then starting up a new RAID5 volume with the new 5tb or 6tb drives, then move the data back on and lastly re-setup or configure the NAS to the same settings?
Or are you referring to actual technical issues or performance issues going forward with a NAS that is running larger than 16tb volume?
If that is the case then I might just settle for these Hitachi H3IKNAS40003272SA (HGST 0S03666)

I believe your TS-459 Pro uses an Intel Atom D510 1.66 GHz Dual-Core processor. I also believe it uses an Intel® I/O Controller Hub 9 (ICH9) for it's southbridge, so this is where you'll find information about the SATA interface.
thanks ill do some reading.
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Re: TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

Post by pwilson »

celox wrote:
pwilson wrote:As stated already you can build a Volume over 16.0TB, you just can't use "expansion" to get there. I don't recommend doing so, simply because of the grief required to make it. QNAP models that use the "SMB" Firmware, don't have this same 16.0TB "expansion" limit. (Check out the first page of the "SMB" version of the "QNAP Turbo NAS User Manual" for the models).
Okay, let me clarify this so that I know what my options are. What your saying here is that the NAS does support over 16TB volume setups, but just that the hardware does not allow or is not capable to use the Expansion method to get there. If I were to buy 5TB or 6TB drives, I can create a raid 5 to run either 20tb or 24tb volumes depending on the drive I buy?


It's a software limitation on the "Home" Firmware. It does not allow "Expansion" over 16.0TB. I have no idea how you think you could get 20TB or 24TB out of a 4-Bay NAS. RAID5: 4 * 6TB = 16.2TB. If you wiped and started again, you could create a 16.2TB Volume.
It might be possible to build a new RAID5: 4 * 8TB Volume of 21.6TB, but you would run out of Swap while creating it, so I wouldn't want to try it.

When you start needing serious Volume sizes like that you will want a new NAS anyway. If sizes like that are in your future, you should probably be considering a new NAS with more bays anyway. Many of the newer models support RAM and CPU upgrades too. Many of the newer models also support expansion chassis like the UX-500P and the UX-800P.
celox wrote:
pwilson wrote:I don't recommend doing so, simply because of the grief required to make it.
By grief do you mean having to move the data off the NAS to a new temp location, then starting up a new RAID5 volume with the new 5tb or 6tb drives, then move the data back on and lastly re-setup or configure the NAS to the same settings?
Or are you referring to actual technical issues or performance issues going forward with a NAS that is running larger than 16tb volume?
If that is the case then I might just settle for these Hitachi H3IKNAS40003272SA (HGST 0S03666)
RAM and Swap will become a major challenge with very large drives in this NAS model. You would need to manually de-RAID the Swap Volume, and then manually recreate 4 Swap partitions using the same individual partitions, just to actually format the Volume. None of this is "supported" by QNAP, so if you "brick" it, you could end up with lots of drives, and no useful NAS to use them in.

Wipe/Rebuild is no fun, and is needless if you switch to a NAS that uses "SMB" Firmware, the 16.0TB expansion limit no longer applies, so you can build very large Volumes without any challenges at all. Sometimes what is "possible" isn't worth the work to make it happen. When you "outgrow" your NAS, simply purchase a "bigger" one. It's a lot less work, and you can "re-sell" your old "diskless" NAS to help finance it's replacement. :DD

Patrick M. Wilson
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Re: TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

Post by celox »

Ah big thank you on the replies you have gave me pwilson.
I had to use a raid calculator to properly understand the calculations you were talking about. I forgot that you loose one full capacity drive size for the parity bit when it comes to running a RAID5 across all 4 drives.

So I guess now I understand what you mean by staying below the 16TB volume after the raid is created.
eg RAID 5 Setups
4 * 4TB = Usable Storage: 10.9 TB / 11175.9 GB - Still okay and within my TS-459 NAS capabilities. (Raw Storage: 16.0 TB / 16000.0 GB)
4 * 5TB = Usable Storage: 13.6 TB / 13969.8 GB - Still okay and within my TS-459 NAS capabilities. (Raw Storage: 20.0 TB / 20000.0 GB)
4 * 6TB = Usable Storage: 16.4 TB / 16763.8 GB - Not okay as it is over 16TB. (Raw Storage: 24.0 TB / 24000.0 GB)

With the bigger the HDD the longer it takes for the rebuild to complete per drive. Would you consider running a RAID6 option over RAID5 if you are going to choose 4TB or higher drives to run within a 4 Bay NAS?

eg. RAID6 - 4 * 4TB = Usable Storage: 7.3 TB / 7450.6 GB VS RAID5 - 4 * 4TB = Usable Storage: 10.9 TB / 11175.9 GB

Lastly, is this possible with QNAP NAS... or is it even possible when it comes to RAIDS?
Are you able to create a RAID6 and then drop it down to a RAID5 without having to rebuild the entire volume? ( vice versa? )
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Re: TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

Post by pwilson »

celox wrote:Ah big thank you on the replies you have gave me pwilson.
I had to use a raid calculator to properly understand the calculations you were talking about. I forgot that you loose one full capacity drive size for the parity bit when it comes to running a RAID5 across all 4 drives.

So I guess now I understand what you mean by staying below the 16TB volume after the raid is created.
eg RAID 5 Setups
4 * 4TB = Usable Storage: 10.9 TB / 11175.9 GB - Still okay and within my TS-459 NAS capabilities. (Raw Storage: 16.0 TB / 16000.0 GB)
4 * 5TB = Usable Storage: 13.6 TB / 13969.8 GB - Still okay and within my TS-459 NAS capabilities. (Raw Storage: 20.0 TB / 20000.0 GB)
4 * 6TB = Usable Storage: 16.4 TB / 16763.8 GB - Not okay as it is over 16TB. (Raw Storage: 24.0 TB / 24000.0 GB)

With the bigger the HDD the longer it takes for the rebuild to complete per drive. Would you consider running a RAID6 option over RAID5 if you are going to choose 4TB or higher drives to run within a 4 Bay NAS?

eg. RAID6 - 4 * 4TB = Usable Storage: 7.3 TB / 7450.6 GB VS RAID5 - 4 * 4TB = Usable Storage: 10.9 TB / 11175.9 GB

Lastly, is this possible with QNAP NAS... or is it even possible when it comes to RAIDS?
Are you able to create a RAID6 and then drop it down to a RAID5 without having to rebuild the entire volume? ( vice versa? )
I am comfortable with RAID5 over 4 drives, regardless of drive size. I would however consider RAID6 for 6 drives or more. I am not a rich man, so I would actually use multiple RAID5 arrays if I had an 8 Bay NAS.

RAID6: 8 * 4TB = 21.6TB
RAID5: 2 * (4 * 4TB = 10.8TB) = 21.6TB total storage.

Both provide the same total storage space. But I would opt for the RAID5 solution, as this would allow me to upgrade 4 drives/upgrade, rather than having to do all 8 drives at the same time.

For my RAID5 calculations I use: (0.9 * advertised drive size) * (N-1)) ; where N = number of drives in the array.
For my RAID6 calculations I use: (0.9 * advertised drive size) * (N-2)) ; where N = number of drives in the array.

I find it abhorrent that drive manufacturers exaggerate the size of drives. Manufactures claim "1 TB = 10^12 = 1000000000000bytes" which is BS. In my opinion 1TB = 2^40 bytes = 1099511627776bytes. Because of this manufacture practice a 1TB drive is really only a 0.9TB drive.

Patrick M. Wilson
Victoria, BC Canada
QNAP TS-470 Pro w/ 4 * Western Digital WD30EFRX WD Reds (RAID5) - - Single 8.1TB Storage Pool FW: QTS 4.2.0 Build 20151023 - Kali Linux v1.06 (64bit)
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Re: TS459Pro - Looking for new HDD 4 or 5 TB?

Post by celox »

Thanks Again for all the help pwilson.
I ended up going for the HGST 4TB (0S03666) drives as the update to my current 2TB HGST drives. In this process I also realized that it takes about 5-7 hours per 4TB drive, total of 22 24 hours for the completed 4 drive rebuilds and then another 5-7 hours for the expansion to take place. This is too long of a wait... so hopefully in the future I can afford and move to a 6 or 8 bay NAS and try to stay in the 2TB or 3TB drives. Just hope this NAS and the drives last me for the next 2-3 years without giving me any grief : ).
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