[WD GREEN HDD COMPATIBILITY] Frustrated

[QNAPJason]

Hi lumi,
I am personally using a WD10EADS in my TS-219P. No problem so far.

Jason

[STurtle]

Guys,

Is WD saying that all their green drives are unsuitable in RAIDs, or is it just the 1.5Tb Greens?

WD themselves use the 1TB and 2TB Greens in their own My Book World Editions II's in RAIDed configurations...

Thoughts?

Taliska

Yes, that is what WD's support team implies. Here is an eMail that I received from WD support, when I specifically asked about the LCC issue only (which the received eMail does not mention at all ):

Code: Select all

Thank you for contacting Western Digital Customer Service and Support. My name is Joan R.

Is this NAS device working on a RAID? If so, Western Digital manufactures desktop edition hard drives (Caviar Green) and RAID Edition hard drives. Each type of hard drive is designed to work specifically in either a desktop computer environment or a demanding enterprise environment.

If you install and use a desktop edition hard drive connected to a RAID controller, the drive may not work correctly unless jointly qualified by an enterprise OEM. This is caused by the normal error recovery procedure that a desktop edition hard drive uses.

When an error is found on a desktop edition hard drive, the drive will enter into a deep recovery cycle to attempt to repair the error, recover the data from the problematic area, and then reallocate a dedicated area to replace the problematic area. This process can take up to 2 minutes depending on the severity of the issue. Most RAID controllers allow a very short amount of time for a hard drive to recover from an error. If a hard drive takes too long to complete this process, the drive will be dropped from the RAID array. Most RAID controllers allow from 7 to 15 seconds for error recovery before dropping a hard drive from an array. Western Digital does not recommend installing desktop edition hard drives in an enterprise environment (on a RAID controller).

Western Digital RAID edition hard drives have a feature called TLER (Time Limited Error Recovery) which stops the hard drive from entering into a deep recovery cycle. The hard drive will only spend 7 seconds to attempt to recover. This means that the hard drive will not be dropped from a RAID array. Though TLER is designed for RAID environments, it is fully compatible and will not be detrimental when used in non-RAID environments.

I hope that we have met your expectations today and that you are satisfied with our service. If you have any further questions, please reply to this email and we will be happy to assist you further.

Sincerely,
Joan R.
Western Digital Service and Support

I have not yet encountered any problems whatsoever using two WD15EADS drives with RAID1 on a TS-219P.

However, as far as I understand the above eMail, the problem only arises once things go wrong. And then, it seems, waiting for 2-3 minutes and rebooting the NAS should resolve it, right?

Now I understand that such a procedure is totally against the intention of using RAID1, which is high availability, since then the data would be inaccessible until the reboot is finished. I guess this is what the WD support person is correctly worried about. However, this does not bother me, since I choose for RAID1 was backup-security only. I have learned now that RAID1 is the wrong solution for me personally, but I am a bit at a loss on how to switch from RAID1 to two single volumes (and then using a remote-replication-job to localhost) without moving all my data to third disk (which I do not have). So for now I stick with RAID1.

[schumaku]

On a single disk unit, this should not hurt to badly - unless the eror recovery takes that long that the system watchdog is rebooting the QNAP TS. Or you do a big backup, or configure Q-RAID on a TS-1xx one day. The more disk activities there are, the more error recovery takes place - in fact more then what we users experience from outside.

Up to a certain manufacturing date and/or firmware version, it is possible to enable TLER on the WDC Green disks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TLER
http://forum.qnap.com/viewtopic.php?f=1 ... EXE#p96477

What is more then obscue in WDC's logic: More and more desktop systems come with RAID controllers, allowing shadowing or stripping of the local disks...

Under the line, it's pure money making - selling the same crappy product prone to massive errors under the hood under to different labels and price tags. According to reports, Western Digital WD15EADS 1.5TB Green Power drives firmware manufactured sinde November 2009 does no longer support TLER - and it can not be enabled with the WDTLER.EXE utility. So please take car of this fact. Honestly - if I'm uncertain, I would try to apply the configuration - worst case, the HDDs go back to warranty exchange making the lack of TLER and become _their_ problem. Fact is: There is no customer information or warning in the WDC products listing for "desktop drives" these drives are not RAID capable. This fact alone should allow anybody hurt by WDC (including QNAP...) to go back to the reseller, system integrator or distributor, and exchange to an alternate RAID-capable product. The WDC support e-mail cited in this thread is already the base for a legal case should they be unwilling. Take your customer rights!

There are reports saying "it works for me". Ha, indeed - I can also "confirm" some Samsung F1 firmware variants do "work" on one or the other configuration and installation. Until something changes! Aparently perfect running RAID drop the before good units while migration to bigger drives. A RAID must be rebuilt after a power failure or brute force shutdown. Any many other examples.

Regarding to WDC's own small RAID-NAS, it's very likely, they make use of a different firmware and/or configuration - or they simply delay any RAID operations during such events on one or the other disk.

Under this prospective, QNAP should phase-out WDC Green Power frome the support list - matter of fact it's WDC, and to some extent the other manufacturers of disks ruining the good name of the RAID manufacturers. Seagate is regularely making firmware updates available, for most Samsung F1 the 1117 firmware upgrades can be fecthed from Dell's support pages.

Just my 4cents.

-Kurt.

PS. Ignore any typos - ice cold hockey stadium here...

[kanchelsis]

Just a quickie update that I've experienced no problems since I replaced my WD15EADS with the Hitachi 7k1000.B Performance is speedy and I'm truly happy for the first time in months since I bought my NAS and the HDDs.

That being said, some people experienced no-to-little problems with it (unlike me and others ). So it all comes down to luck I guess the problem seems to only occur if you RAID the disks.

@albundy: you could RAID the disks and test them out intensively over the next few days if they are ok. Else just return and exchange for other models.

[saunter]

Guys,

Is WD saying that all their green drives are unsuitable in RAIDs, or is it just the 1.5Tb Greens?

WD themselves use the 1TB and 2TB Greens in their own My Book World Editions II's in RAIDed configurations...

Thoughts?

Taliska

Yes, that is what WD's support team implies. Here is an eMail that I received from WD support, when I specifically asked about the LCC issue only (which the received eMail does not mention at all ):

Code: Select all

Thank you for contacting Western Digital Customer Service and Support. My name is Joan R.

Is this NAS device working on a RAID? If so, Western Digital manufactures desktop edition hard drives (Caviar Green) and RAID Edition hard drives. Each type of hard drive is designed to work specifically in either a desktop computer environment or a demanding enterprise environment.

If you install and use a desktop edition hard drive connected to a RAID controller, the drive may not work correctly unless jointly qualified by an enterprise OEM. This is caused by the normal error recovery procedure that a desktop edition hard drive uses.

When an error is found on a desktop edition hard drive, the drive will enter into a deep recovery cycle to attempt to repair the error, recover the data from the problematic area, and then reallocate a dedicated area to replace the problematic area. This process can take up to 2 minutes depending on the severity of the issue. Most RAID controllers allow a very short amount of time for a hard drive to recover from an error. If a hard drive takes too long to complete this process, the drive will be dropped from the RAID array. Most RAID controllers allow from 7 to 15 seconds for error recovery before dropping a hard drive from an array. Western Digital does not recommend installing desktop edition hard drives in an enterprise environment (on a RAID controller).

Western Digital RAID edition hard drives have a feature called TLER (Time Limited Error Recovery) which stops the hard drive from entering into a deep recovery cycle. The hard drive will only spend 7 seconds to attempt to recover. This means that the hard drive will not be dropped from a RAID array. Though TLER is designed for RAID environments, it is fully compatible and will not be detrimental when used in non-RAID environments.

I hope that we have met your expectations today and that you are satisfied with our service. If you have any further questions, please reply to this email and we will be happy to assist you further.

Sincerely,
Joan R.
Western Digital Service and Support

I have not yet encountered any problems whatsoever using two WD15EADS drives with RAID1 on a TS-219P.

However, as far as I understand the above eMail, the problem only arises once things go wrong. And then, it seems, waiting for 2-3 minutes and rebooting the NAS should resolve it, right?

Now I understand that such a procedure is totally against the intention of using RAID1, which is high availability, since then the data would be inaccessible until the reboot is finished. I guess this is what the WD support person is correctly worried about. However, this does not bother me, since I choose for RAID1 was backup-security only. I have learned now that RAID1 is the wrong solution for me personally, but I am a bit at a loss on how to switch from RAID1 to two single volumes (and then using a remote-replication-job to localhost) without moving all my data to third disk (which I do not have). So for now I stick with RAID1.

Judging by the email from WD then it comes down to either us buying HDD that not the WD Green or QNAP themsevles to do something about these Green Drives not working well in RAID. As stated in the email above. From what I can see here in the forum, QNAP has done nothing or even mentioned about these Green drives not working well or MAY have issues with them, until this Thread was started. They listed them in the compatability list as supported drives and working fine. I believed that needs to be changed. Or at least mention about this issue and if the user wants to go ahead on their own accord then thats fine. I brought my drives based on that list and hell had nothing but issues with my NAS ( both times hardaware of the NAS failed, getting my 3rd tomorrow, hopefully all is well ). Will give the HDD another good test in the coming box and will post again on my results. But overall it completely ** to have 2 faulty TS410 and wasted a total of 5 weeks now just testing and waiting around for it to be shipped back to me. Complete waste of time.

[Broadsword]

Well based on the compatibility list I paid £300 for 4 1.5TB EADS.

I have started having real problems with the device now, pauses and stutters during media playback, large media files that report as fully copied to the NAS actually being a few GB less than it should have been and very very slow access to files via explorer and the GUI whilst anything else is happening. The logs show constant disconnections etc.

Quite obvious it is the drives.

I honestly can't believe, and quite frankly it leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, that QNAP were aware of these issues as far back as last summer and did not remove these drives from the list a lot sooner.

I have until 31 Janu to return the QNAP and based on this thread I probably will do, Synology here I come.

[schumaku]

Well based on the compatibility list I paid £300 for 4 1.5TB EADS.

I have until 31 Janu to return the QNAP and based on this thread I probably will do, Synology here I come.

Swap the crappy WD Desktop drives (well crappy Deep Error Recovery firmware feature in fact, the hardware is ok...) - these do not work on any other comparable NAS in the market. Frustration understood - in first priority, this is a WDC issue. It is WDC having changed the specifications, and removed the ability to enable TLER, by removing the TLER code from their Desktop drives - leaving you, dear anyNAS customers with WD Desktop drives, lost in space.

Sorry, I try warning repeatedly here in the forum.

-Kurt.

[restock]

Well - I picked up a QNAP TS410 with 4 x 1.5TB WD Green drives for a 5 bay RAID array. Looks like I may have to exchange the drives for new ones now. Any suggestions for 1.5TB or 2TB drives? Hitachi? Seagate?

[Broadsword]

Well - I picked up a QNAP TS410 with 4 x 1.5TB WD Green drives for a 5 bay RAID array. Looks like I may have to exchange the drives for new ones now. Any suggestions for 1.5TB or 2TB drives? Hitachi? Seagate?

What issues are you suffering?

I went for Samsung F2 H15JUI (or similar, cant recall the exact name) 1.5TB drives. And so far, about 1 week in have had no issues. But I had no issues 1 week in using the WD drives either so I'm still on edge about the whole thing.

[fordy]

I think I'm experiencing an issue because of this.

I got some brand new 1.5GB WD Greens to put in the NAS, and all seemed to be good to begin with (apart from initially not being seen on the network for awhile on startup)

Now all of a sudden, the NAS needs to delay about 30 seconds or so each time I go into a subdirectory, plus the web interface hangs for the same amount of time. The network map also constantly shows up as being disconnected, too.

When copying from/to the NAS, the initial transfer is nice and fast, and then it gets to a random point where it just stops, hangs for a moment and then reports that the network connection was lost.

I have ruled out network issues, since I have tried multiple CAT5E and CAT6 cables, different switches and even direct linking to a workstation.

[Ibbz]

They sound pretty much the same as my issues fordy - I've even tried enabled TLER and changing spin down time - no effect. I'm just going to replace the WD's with some Samsung's of equivalent size when I have a chance.

[Avatar]

Disk 2
======
Hard disk model Western Digital Caviar Green family
Model number WDC WD10EADS-00L5B1
Serial number W -DCWUA********
Disk capacity 931.51 GB
Firmware version 01.01A01
ATA version ATA-8
ATA standard Exact ATA specification draft version not indicated

Sorry for the bad formatting

• ID Description Value Worst Value Threshold Raw value Status
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 126 110 051 131667 OK
  3 Spin_Up_Time 166 164 021 6700 OK
  4 Start_Stop_Count 100 100 000 263 OK
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 200 200 140 0 OK
  7 Seek_Error_Rate 200 200 000 0 OK
  9 Power_On_Hours 095 095 000 3856 OK
  10 Spin_Retry_Count 100 100 000 0 OK
  11 Calibration_Retry_Count 100 100 000 0 OK
  12 Power_Cycle_Count 100 100 000 210 OK
  192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 200 200 000 16 OK
  193 Load_Cycle_Count 200 200 000 263 OK
  194 Temperature_Celsius 123 107 000 27 OK
  196 Reallocated_Event_Count 200 200 000 0 OK
  197 Current_Pending_Sector 200 200 000 0 OK
  198 Offline_Uncorrectable 200 200 000 0 OK
  199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count 200 200 000 0 OK
  200 Multi_Zone_Error_Rate 200 200 000 0 OK

Funny that with a Raw_Read_Error_Rate of 131667 the QNap test program says OK.

So it seems this is the first report about a WD Caviar Green which is dying on a TS-439 Pro buyed just some months ago.

The part I like least is of course: "It's difficult to judge whether the load cycle count has real effect on the lifespan of HDDs, results may vary. It's up to HDD manufacturers on how they design their HDDs and their target markets." That "results may vary" part is just embarrassing.
I guarantee everyone here that this will absolutely effect the lifespan of your HDD, without exception. There is no rotational hard drive on the planet for which this is not true and that's an absolute truth.

I was hoping to avoid an 80 mile trip to return my purchase, but I've made up my mind. QNAP really ought to consider removing this drive from the compatibility list if they aren't going to add their own "utility" to the firmware to deal with this because there's going to be an inordinate amount of unhappy people here in a year or two, give or take.

Is my problem related to the subject-matter of this thread? Dunno. I have another three (new) disks in a RAID-5 configuration. Thanks WD for saying that those HD are not good in ARRAY configurations AFTER all of us has buyed them.

Ah, they have been removed from the compatibility list now... unfortunately I am on my own at the moment. Again, thanks WD.

A satisfied customer.