Seagate ST4000DM000

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philhu
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by philhu »

These drives rock, 4000DM000, if you have the CC51 firmware. That is what is shipping now. Bought at my local Best Buy, very inexpensive this week. Less than $185
fantomas
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by fantomas »

well, we're just very skeptical and careful about any desktop driver, WD or Seagate.
I'd wait for WD Red 4T or SG Constellation CS 4TB (although the latter will probably be a bit more expensive).
Many people prefer Hitachi drives, but I'm not sure about last versions, since SG bought them...
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Scillonian
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by Scillonian »

fantomas wrote:Many people prefer Hitachi drives, but I'm not sure about last versions, since SG bought them...
Hitachi's disk business was sold to Western Digital. Also as part of the regulatory approval for the sale some of the Hitachi disk business went to Toshiba.
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mcdade
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by mcdade »

Anyone with these drives seen this problem?

I'm installing one on a 412 unit in the 4th bay, updated to latest 3.8.2 firmware and the drive will show up for a minute or so in the bay, show it as not formatted, I try and format, it starts then the unit starts to beep a few times and the disk disappears. That's it and it's gone. I want to add it to my JBOD just as a backup but now it shows that bay empty. I did manage to just read and even format the drive on my mac, did a disk check and it all came back fine. Just the Qnap seems to freak out when it's in the bay. If I reboot the unit it will show up again, till the unit finds it and then beep freak out and drop it.

Thank for any insight.

Edit : after looking at the logs it seems the drive keeps getting a "plugged out" error even though I'm not pulling it out.
2013-05-23 15:46:45 System 127.0.0.1 localhost Drive 4 plugged out.
2013-05-23 15:46:20 System 127.0.0.1 localhost [Single Disk Volume: Drive 4] Formatting failed(Cannot unmount disk).
2013-05-23 15:46:19 System 127.0.0.1 localhost [Single Disk Volume: Drive 4] Formatting failed.
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schumaku
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by schumaku »

3.8.2 is not latest ... 3.8.3 is as of writing (for weeks.... not just for geeks). Why? You would get some of the HDD I/O Errors getting logged to the NAS system log - almost convinced it's a HDD issue:

Check the Kernel output ...

[~] # dmesg
...

[~] # ls /mnt/HDA_ROOT/.logs/kmsg
...

[~] # more /mnt/HDA_ROOT/.logs/kmsg/[filename]
...
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Scillonian
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by Scillonian »

schumaku wrote:... almost convinced it's a HDD issue: ...
This may not be relevant to the ST4000DM000 but there is a theory that with the infamous ST2000DL003 they are more sensitive to noise and/or AC ripple on the power lines than other drives.

I have three ST2000DL003 drives and on connecting the drive to a PC or QNAP two out of the three fail with one particular external enclosure I have. One of them also fails with one particular cheap unknown manufacturer PC power supply.

In the absence of access to an oscilloscope to look for noise I used a digital voltmeter to check for any AC component on the DC lines and those power supplies where the drives fail show a higher AC component.
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doktornotor
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by doktornotor »

Scillonian wrote:In the absence of access to an oscilloscope to look for noise I used a digital voltmeter to check for any AC component on the DC lines and those power supplies where the drives fail show a higher AC component.
I think ~380V AC is just about right for these Seagate models... :ubergeek: :geek:

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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by mcdade »

schumaku wrote:3.8.2 is not latest ... 3.8.3 is as of writing (for weeks.... not just for geeks). Why? You would get some of the HDD I/O Errors getting logged to the NAS system log - almost convinced it's a HDD issue:
...
Oh ya.. I ment 3.8.3, as I ran the update. So far managed to get it installed and running. Maybe I was just to 'click' happy when trying to get it online, seems to need some time to format and then build the JBOD. So far I haven't had any new issues with it (knock on wood). We will see how this works out.

Thanks for the idea of where to look for more errors.
deix

Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by deix »

Hi,

I have bought 2 of Seagate ST4000DM000 for my TS-219PII at this time, those drive have just passed the laboratory tests. I am running my QNAP TS-219PII (mirror RAID) on newest firmware (4.0.1) and can confirm the issue with "Load Cycle Count" :( I have spent a lot of time figuring out what is it and why it is "not welcome behaviour"...

Problem description (as far I have understood this & my experiences):
- During the normal operation the Power Management tries to enters power saving mode, the heads are retracted off the platters onto a load/unload ramp, and the drive should then spin down --> but then the NAS sends it immediately to "normal operation". This causes the movement of the head back and forward --> adding 1 to "Load Cycle Count" .
- The values is rated at 300,000, so something below one year of usage in my fall.

How it can be noticed:
- Behaviour as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ1DBg3ihT0

My solution:
- I have to create a "autorun" script, which set the Power Management to very "unagressive behaviour". It can be done with usage of "hdparm" - kind of tool to set/get values of HDD's. Unfrotunetly, the "hdparm" provided with 4.0.1 firmware is quite old (v6.1), which do not support Seagate drive. So the way to fix the problem was:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
/opt/sbin/hdparm-hdparm -B254 /dev/sda
/opt/sbin/hdparm-hdparm -B254 /dev/sdb
This works fine for me - no more "Load Cycle Count" issue with Seagate :) Hope it helps with making the usage of this drives more robust...

P.S. Using the "putty" and the "hdparm" or "hdparm-hdparm" You can get the status of the HDD:

HDD actual status:

Code: Select all

hdparm -C /dev/sda
Set to stand by:

Code: Select all

hdparm -y /dev/sda
HDD Info:

Code: Select all

hdparm -I /dev/sda
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Michal
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by NicolaiSo »

Hey Michael (And everyone else who may be reading).
I followed your guide and your instructions fixed the issue of "Load Cycle Count" - The first few days I had the disks the SMART counter recorded 513 Load Cycle Counts - Since I implemented your script I had 1 increment, so seems to have fixed the issue.
I know a lot of you thinks why use a drive like this, and honestly it was because I just had it lying around. The ST4000DM000 is the drive that is inside the Seagate Central, which is a product you need to look hard and long for to find something that is poorer designed.
The unit simply broke after a few days and I simply had it and went out and purchased the TS-421 which is so much better then what Seagate Central would ever be.

Anyway, you pay 150 USD for a 4TB drive, which I do not find that bad...Let us see what I say in a couple of years though :-) Until then I will check the SMART status and update you of issues.
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by fantomas »

seagate sells its "NAS value" ST4000VN000 that are especially targeted for NAS usage. I recommend prefer these over ST4000DM000
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pwilson
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by pwilson »

QNAPJason on April 15th, 2013 wrote:Hi,
ST4000DM000 has just been passed and will be on the web list by next week.
AUSTraveler wrote:
Scroll up on this same thread - http://forum.qnap.com/viewtopic.php?f=1 ... 15#p335900

Here is the official supported list as well - http://www.qnap.com/en/?sn=3877 which lists the ST4000DM000 without any Notes.
How rapidly things change.... The Seagate ST4000DM000 is now getting the listing it deserves:

[quote="QNAP 3.5" HDD Compatibility List"]Image
[/quote]

What is amusing about this thread, is that it is still getting replies. They are crappy drives, yet the debate continues.... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
What is truly aggravating about it, is that Seagate's ST4000DM000 specsheet still claims:
This make me wonder whether Seagate actually believes their own deceptive claims. Western Digital has finally admitted that their WD Greens, Blues and Blacks are not suitable for RAID, but Seagate continues to publish this BS about their Barracuda series drives, despite the 275,000 Results returned when the informed reader does a Google search with search terms "ST4000DM000 RAID issues"

Personally, Seagate's continued claims mean that I no longer trust them, and therefore I will no longer purchase any of their products, despite more than 20 years of using their products almost exclusively. Once trust is gone, there is nothing left. WD Reds for me going forward....

Patrick M. Wilson
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kkarr2012
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by kkarr2012 »

Hi all,

Just thought I'd share my experiences here.

First off, I think why people are still talking about these Seagate Desktop Drives is simply the price point, familiarity and just trying to figure out what will actually just work for their scenarios.

I think what the basic problem here can be broken down into categories.

First, the Seagate desktop drives are the drives that are meant to be used as "Desktop" drives. Typical consumers buy them and only have one Hard drive in their system and run windows on it. All of the Special Firmware tweaking and features in the controller are "tuned" for this purpose.

Secondly, The quality of manufacturing or the actual fail rate of produced drives whether physical or software in the firmware of the controllers.

Thirdly, the handling of these drives during shipping and storage from the factory to your supplier (this is actually a huge part of the failure rates believe it or not for most Harddrives from any company).

On the Design side, For RAID systems or NAS's you have a different set of specifications for usage. Vibration due to rotational speeds, power conditions (good power, etc), Workloads.
Mentioned in this forum, timeout values, behaviour algorithms and tolerances are key to the drives design application. Most of us like using the cheaper drives to achieve RAID which requires a little more tweaking sometimes then just off the shelf conditions. I mean RAID 5 is used for redundancy right ? Why not use cheaper drives, especially for a home scenario rather then business conditions.

Some of these settings can be tweaked. Power saving adjustments or spinup rates for one are a "configurable" software adjustment as the drive accepts codes sent to the controller.

My experience with the 2TB (ST2000DM001) was similar to what some were experiencing at first. After quick reading I managed to come across the fact that these drives firmwares all had to be upgraded to the latest (at the time) CC4C firmware.
My Configuration:
QNAP TS-659 Pro II
6 x Seagate ST2000DM001 in RAID 5 setup.

Further more the Drives experienced the frequent spinup - starting and stopping issue as mentioned before.

Used the hdparm commandline on the QNAP (its a Linux core on QNAP's - awesome products FYI) to adjust the timeouts to the lowest possible settings and let the QNAP manage power savings modes (the HD's settings were conflicting with the software which I think was part of the issues). I have successfully run this config for aprox 2 years now without issues on these drives.

Good forum post on clicking problem and hdparm for QNAP: http://forum.qnap.com/viewtopic.php?p=156859

Other things I did were to run full Harddrive Erasures on each drive (using DBAN utility) to ensure that all sectors were okay before putting into production. as well as used HDTach for performance test and Crystal Disk Info utility to take a look at each drives current smart settings (in a separate test computer before putting into the QNAP). This took more time initially to get the drives "in shape" for the QNAP however this "burn in" was the true test for Dead on arrival or Dead near arrival issues. Hammer the drive before in production so you can return immediately if there are issues.

Now I have been considering the 4TB (ST4000DM000) drives and reading much of the issues people have had which seem to be similar to the problems I went through with the 2TB versions (especially the dreadful clicking issue). I have not read many comments about DOA drives just problems later with RAID systems and drives falling off bus.

I also assume for any serious bugs, Seagate would put out a firmware update like they have in the past.

My questions:

1: The second drives I have looked at are the NAS versions (ST4000NV000). These drives seem to have specialized firmware tweaking however I am concerned about the specified 5 drive limit. If anyone could shed light on whether they have used over 5 drives in an array to see if it works okay still (Would like to know if this is a hard or soft limit ? So far I can't find an answer to this ?)

2: Why has QNAP now put this ST4000M000 drive on the non-compatibility list ? I would really like to see some of their support discussions/ticket resolution on this to make my own decision on a purchase to see if in fact many of the issues are ones I've already gone through with the previous drives.

Also, many drives suffer from issues when they first come out until manufacturers can work out the bugs. I never buy first lot or gen drives when they first come out until they have been on the market and the latest firmware updates are released.

Any thoughts appreciated, hope my experiences helps someone with this.
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doktornotor
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by doktornotor »

kkarr2012 wrote:2: Why has QNAP now put this ST4000M000 drive on the non-compatibility list ?
1/ Because it's proven POS generating endless user complaints?
2/ See #1.
3/ See #1.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
kkarr2012 wrote:I would really like to see some of their support discussions/ticket resolution on this to make my own decision on a purchase to see if in fact many of the issues are ones I've already gone through with the previous drives.
You are free to buy whatever you want. Just don't come back here to complain that the drives don't work properly.
I'm gone from this forum till QNAP stop wasting volunteers' time. Get help from QNAP helpdesk instead.
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tcboy88
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Re: Seagate ST4000DM000

Post by tcboy88 »

doktornotor wrote:
kkarr2012 wrote:2: Why has QNAP now put this ST4000M000 drive on the non-compatibility list ?
1/ Because it's proven POS generating endless user complaints?
2/ See #1.
3/ See #1.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
kkarr2012 wrote:I would really like to see some of their support discussions/ticket resolution on this to make my own decision on a purchase to see if in fact many of the issues are ones I've already gone through with the previous drives.
You are free to buy whatever you want. Just don't come back here to complain that the drives don't work properly.

why QNAP put ST4000DM000 and ST3000DM001 back to the compatibility list now?
the crappy drive problem is fixed?
I am getting 2 ST4000DM000 due to its cheap price
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