how to setup disks in a new qnap?

Discussion on setting up QNAP NAS products.
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aarbee
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how to setup disks in a new qnap?

Post by aarbee » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:58 pm

I am thinking about buying the 877-1600.
And I am not sure what to do with the disks.

I can do like I have it on the 673, which is a pool of 4 disks in Raid 6, and 2 m.2 for the virtual machines.

This is what I am thinking about:
m.2 or SSD for system boot and media files and Virtual Machines raid 1
2x 2TB SSD for the data-files, eventually going R10 if I have to add 2 disks more.
2x 1 TB 2.5 wd red, for my archived files and backups from a second nas.
1 WD purple for camera.

I doubt about using the m.2 for boot and vm and media, or wether the normal SSD is something better.
As only one person is using the datafiles, I wonder if I can combine them with the vm's and media files in a 4x SSD raid 10 setup.
Or is a split in 2 raid 1 better?

Thanks ahead.
Last edited by aarbee on Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Disks Raid 6: 2.5" 4x WD red 1TB active, 2 spare(nasware2/Nasware3)
Cache: Cache SSD: Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---
Model: TS-239 PRO II - Raid 1: 2x WD Red 4TB
Model: TS-219P II+ - Raid 1: 2x HGST Deskstar-nas 3TB

Reserve 1x HGST Deskstar-nas 4TB
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My it weblog ( http://www.nononsensecomputer.nl

P3R
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Re: how to setujp disks in a new qnap?

Post by P3R » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:53 pm

aarbee wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:58 pm
2x 2TB SSD for the data-files, eventually going R10 if I have to add 2 disks more.
Be aware that there is no migration path to (or from) RAID 10 and that it's not possible to add disks for later storage expansion.

Why do you prefer RAID 10 over RAID 6?
2x 1 TB 2.5 wd red, for my archived files and backups from a second nas.
Why 2.5" when 3.5" have more cache, are faster and less expensive?
I doubt about using the m.2 for boot and vm and media, or wether the normal SSD is something better.
Why would it be better?
As only one person is using the datafiles, I wonder if I can combine them with the vm's and media files in a 4x SSD raid 10 setup.
Or is a split in 2 raid 1 better?
Generally speaking, more disks in a RAID is usually better than fewer.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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aarbee
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Re: how to setup disks in a new qnap?

Post by aarbee » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:17 pm

I am using 2.5 hdd becasue I allready have them. And the max of data will be around 600GB. So that is why would like to use them for archived and backup data.

I did not know that you need to add all the disks before entering Raid 10, and that you cannot extend. I always thought you could extend them with 2 at a time.

So there is no issue using m.2 or ssd, either way, for boot, vm and media?
I ask that, as I have my vm's on the m.2 in a 673, and see them constant flashing, which means a constant sync. probably because of the VM's. I thought that could interfere in the speed.
I am not planning to have more than 4 data disks.
If they are big enough I I could add the archiven on them as well, yet I consider archiver and backups as dead data, and consider it a sin to use SSD's for them. Next to that, is the site-site backup limited by the internet speed.
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Disks Raid 6: 2.5" 4x WD red 1TB active, 2 spare(nasware2/Nasware3)
Cache: Cache SSD: Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---
Model: TS-239 PRO II - Raid 1: 2x WD Red 4TB
Model: TS-219P II+ - Raid 1: 2x HGST Deskstar-nas 3TB

Reserve 1x HGST Deskstar-nas 4TB
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My it weblog ( http://www.nononsensecomputer.nl

P3R
Guru
Posts: 11286
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: how to setup disks in a new qnap?

Post by P3R » Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:34 pm

aarbee wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:17 pm
I did not know that you need to add all the disks before entering Raid 10, and that you cannot extend. I always thought you could extend them with 2 at a time.
No. Expansion by adding disks is only supported with RAID 5 and RAID 6.

From the Qnap documentation: Note: New disks cannot be inserted into existing RAID groups for specific RAID types, such as, RAID 0, RAID 10, Single, or JBOD. You must create additional RAID groups to expand these storage pools.
So there is no issue using m.2 or ssd, either way, for boot, vm and media?
2.5" are hot-swap which of course is an advantage on critical storage but other than that, I don't know that M.2 would be any worse (or better).
I ask that, as I have my vm's on the m.2 in a 673, and see them constant flashing, which means a constant sync.
It means you have constant activity on them. 2.5" SSD indicators would flash in the same way if you had the same load on them.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

User avatar
aarbee
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Posts: 370
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Re: how to setup disks in a new qnap?

Post by aarbee » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:52 pm

I was searching the 4.4.1 manual for raid 10, and came not across the section. However they say that only raid 5, 6, 50, 60 can be expanded. Which means, I never saw that text.
I do not even find the text about upgrading from 1, 5 or 6 to 10.
Which means I have to start Raid 10 from the start, including all the disks I want to use as maximum? That is a lot of money in Raid 10. If you could combine ssd and hdd in a raid, then would that be a solution. And I could replace the HDD one by one.
I am thinking about m.2 by WD red, and the other SSD by Seagate 110.

Next I think the same about m.2 and ssd, but was not sure, if I was not aware of an issue.
Yet I am a bit worried about, lets say a raid 10 aver 6 ssd + 2 m.2 and VM's running on it, would worn out the disks earlier, and cost more in energie.

Why not Raid 6? I am having Raid 6 now, and thought that Raid 10 was much faster.
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Disks Raid 6: 2.5" 4x WD red 1TB active, 2 spare(nasware2/Nasware3)
Cache: Cache SSD: Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---
Model: TS-239 PRO II - Raid 1: 2x WD Red 4TB
Model: TS-219P II+ - Raid 1: 2x HGST Deskstar-nas 3TB

Reserve 1x HGST Deskstar-nas 4TB
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My it weblog ( http://www.nononsensecomputer.nl

P3R
Guru
Posts: 11286
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: how to setup disks in a new qnap?

Post by P3R » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:26 pm

aarbee wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:52 pm
I was searching the 4.4.1 manual for raid 10, and came not across the section.
No, it's good to also refer to the 4.3.X documentation (I provided the link in my post) as that is more extensive compared to the anorectic user guides for later releases.
However they say that only raid 5, 6, 50, 60 can be expanded.
Which implies what the note said.
I do not even find the text about upgrading from 1, 5 or 6 to 10.
Which is explained by that it's not supported. As I said, there is no migration path neither to or from RAID 10.
Which means I have to start Raid 10 from the start, including all the disks I want to use as maximum?
Yes, you're stuck with whatever RAID 10 configuration you create from the beginning.
Why not Raid 6? I am having Raid 6 now, and thought that Raid 10 was much faster.
RAID 10 is faster with random access, that is common in enterprise usage. Most SMB and home user usage is however sequential and there RAID 6 is faster with a decent CPU from 6 disks and up. A TS-877-1600 CPU is much, much better than decent! With 4 disks RAID 6 and 10 are pretty much equal but RAID 6 is of course more reliable.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

User avatar
aarbee
Easy as a breeze
Posts: 370
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:54 am

Re: how to setup disks in a new qnap?

Post by aarbee » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:55 pm

P3R
Thanks for thinking with me.
I think I will go with 2x WD red 1TB m.2 for system and VM's
And use the present set of 4x 1 TB 2.5 WD red and replace them with bigger SSD's during the upcoming year. Raid 6. Eventually adding the 2 2.5"slots with SSD.

Except for higher uptime, another reason to use R6 over R5?
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Disks Raid 6: 2.5" 4x WD red 1TB active, 2 spare(nasware2/Nasware3)
Cache: Cache SSD: Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---
Model: TS-239 PRO II - Raid 1: 2x WD Red 4TB
Model: TS-219P II+ - Raid 1: 2x HGST Deskstar-nas 3TB

Reserve 1x HGST Deskstar-nas 4TB
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My it weblog ( http://www.nononsensecomputer.nl

P3R
Guru
Posts: 11286
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: how to setup disks in a new qnap?

Post by P3R » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:08 am

aarbee wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:55 pm
Except for higher uptime, another reason to use R6 over R5?
No. Both performance and usable storage capacity will be better with RAID 5 but reliability worse.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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