NAS on Powerline adaptor

Discussion on setting up QNAP NAS products.
nicholson2002
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NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by nicholson2002 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:46 pm

I am close to purchasing a QNAP NAS in the coming weeks (probably the TS453B, 4 x 4tb HDD, 8gb RAM, using RAID10). The NAS's main purpose will be for the storage of our varied media and other documents, which will all need to be accessed whilst we are overseas for periods of time. Of course, quite separately, we will be backing up the data through various methods. Also, I plan on installing the Plex Media Server on the NAS - it currently sits on my Macbook Pro.

Our router (BT Smart Hub) is located in one part of our home. Our TV, Apple TV and Orbitsound system are in another, albeit in the same room and only about 7 metres apart. Whilst I fully understand that an ethernet connection of these devices to the router is the best solution, it is simply not possible in our situation, hence we are looking for 'second best' solutions.

At the moment, my principal question is which of these two alternative would work better (both involving the use of Powerline adaptors):

(1) Locate the QNAP NAS next to the router and connect to it directly through ethernet. This will preclude the NAS from having ethernet connection to other devices such as the TV, Apple TV or the sound system and we will be relying on wifi which provides us with speeds of about 45mb/sec download and around 10mb/sec upload. Alternatively, we might use Powerline adaptors to allow us to connect ethernet to the Apple TV and Panasonic Smart TV.

(2) Alternatively, (as I understand it) using a couple of Powerline adaptors, we could co-locate the NAS with the various Plex media players but away from the router. That would allow direct connection between the NAS and the various media players.

I apologise if my lack of a proper understanding of these issues has led to a convoluted and nonsense question but I am really in need of some help. In short, I guess my main question that I am asking is if it is possible to run the QNAP NAS on a Powerline adaptor? Which of the above two approaches would work best or is there a better way?

I would welcome all advice.

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GTunney
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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by GTunney » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:33 pm

If you go for scenario A then you're going to be restricted by the Wifi speed which on a BT Home Hub i'm not sure would be up to scratch for multiple streams for video.

If you go for scenario B then you're going to need a switch to be able to connect the media devices to the network via LAN so it can talk with the NAS.

Personally I would go with scenario B. Buy a gigabit switch, have all the media + NAS attached to the switch then use a gigabit powerline to link the switch to the router to give the devices internet access. This way all your traffic for things like streaming from plex / NAS will be done via the gigabit LAN and won't involve you router which then leaves the powerline which are notorious for bottlenecks to only handle internet traffic.

Hope this helps.
Model: TS-653B 8GB
Disks: 3 x 4TB Western Digital WD40EFRX - RAID 5
Total Storage: 7.2TB
Applications: Plex MS | QCouchPotato | QSabnzbd+ | QSickrage | QHeadphones | HTPC Manager | Kodi v18.4 MySQL
Other Devices: Netgear D7000 AC1900 VDSL Router | FTTC - 80/20 | Netgear GS108 Gigabit Switch

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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:53 pm

GTunney wrote:Personally I would go with scenario B. Buy a gigabit switch, have all the media + NAS attached to the switch then use a gigabit powerline to link the switch to the router to give the devices internet access. This way all your traffic for things like streaming from plex / NAS will be done via the gigabit LAN and won't involve you router which then leaves the powerline which are notorious for bottlenecks to only handle internet traffic.

Hope this helps.


Yeah thats probably the best.

last time when i tried the other way, the performance was so bad, i just put them both back into storage. But i did used an older powerline ethernet adapter, an aztech.

These days i just use wireless dlna.


nicholson2002 wrote:I am close to purchasing a QNAP NAS in the coming weeks (probably the TS453B, 4 x 4tb HDD, 8gb RAM, using RAID10). The NAS's main purpose will be for the storage of our varied media and other documents, which will all need to be accessed whilst we are overseas for periods of time. Of course, quite separately, we will be backing up the data through various methods. Also, I plan on installing the Plex Media Server on the NAS - it currently sits on my Macbook Pro.


does that mean you intend to use plex transcoding feature to access remotely?

Did you see here for the ts-653b transcoding capability yet?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =314388488


Also plex own recommendation for CPU passmark to be able to perform transcoding well here
https://support.plex.tv/hc/en-us/articl ... my-Server-


If you want to do transcoding without a fuss, try a i3, i5, i7 or ryzen qnap. The ryzen is out near end of this month :)

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=134062



also why raid10 ? for a 4 x 4tb in raid10 thats like only 8tb usable space :?

From Youtube.com



also do you have a backup for this? a nas by itself isn't a backup. either do NAS with cloud backup service (crashplan is like $5 monthly), or a NAS with another NAS.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

nicholson2002
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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by nicholson2002 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:41 pm

Thanks GTunney, your comments are helpful. That would be my preferred method as well but I wasn't sure if I was doing something really dumb.

Moogie, in answer to your questions:

(1) Yes, if possible, I would want to transcode whilst accessing remotely. Pretty much my entire movie collection is in the MKV format
(2) Thanks for the Plex NAS compatibility chart. It says that the TS453B does support 1080p but it "may struggle with some high bitrate 1080p media". Perhaps I need to re-think my NAS choice?
(3) I hadn't seen the Plex document on CPU requirements. That might be another reason to reconsider. Hmmm. Thanks for your suggestions.
(4) I did a fair bit of research on the best RAID and thought that RAID10 might be a good choice, primarily for the extra speed it promises. I do understand that 4 x 4tb = 8th usable.
(5) Yes, I know that the NAS is not backup. I'm planning on attaching another HDD to the NAS that I will use for Time Machine backup. I also have two online backup accounts, CrashPlan and iDrive. I also regularly some particularly important files to a USB stick.

Welcome any further thoughts.

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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:01 pm

nicholson2002 wrote:(1) Yes, if possible, I would want to transcode whilst accessing remotely. Pretty much my entire movie collection is in the MKV format


mkv isn't really the issue. more importantly h264, h265? what kind of bit rate ? if not mistaken the ts453b cpu does not have h265 aka HEVC hardware acceleration decoding on it. doesn't mean it won't play but will spike up on cpu usage though.

nicholson2002 wrote:(2) Thanks for the Plex NAS compatibility chart. It says that the TS453B does support 1080p but it "may struggle with some high bitrate 1080p media". Perhaps I need to re-think my NAS choice?

(3) I hadn't seen the Plex document on CPU requirements. That might be another reason to reconsider. Hmmm. Thanks for your suggestions.


this is exactly what i'm trying to warn you about. Unless you intend to strictly deal only with 1080p with low bit rate, your better off just getting a i3, i5, i7 or ryzen model which most definitely will just work without the fuss, or aggravating you why the video is stuttering cauz your cpu cannot keep up. this is irrespective of what brand of nas, it's all dependent on the cpu :)

If all your doing is like me directplay video content to desktop windows 10 smb, there is no lag at all. even with hevc and high bit rate content. the decoding is on my pc which has an i7 3770 cpu using MPC-HC with madvr, lavfilters :)


nicholson2002 wrote:(5) Yes, I know that the NAS is not backup. I'm planning on attaching another HDD to the NAS that I will use for Time Machine backup. I also have two online backup accounts, CrashPlan and iDrive. I also regularly some particularly important files to a USB stick.


good :)
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

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GTunney
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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by GTunney » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:12 pm

If it helps at all I'm running Plex on my TS-453B and using the plex pass beta with hardware transcoding.

So far i have been able to transcode and stream 5 x 1080p mkv x264 with 20+mbps bitrate down to 720p 4mbps without a hitch. This is all I was able to test as my upload for my connection (20mbps) was maxed out.
Model: TS-653B 8GB
Disks: 3 x 4TB Western Digital WD40EFRX - RAID 5
Total Storage: 7.2TB
Applications: Plex MS | QCouchPotato | QSabnzbd+ | QSickrage | QHeadphones | HTPC Manager | Kodi v18.4 MySQL
Other Devices: Netgear D7000 AC1900 VDSL Router | FTTC - 80/20 | Netgear GS108 Gigabit Switch

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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:17 pm

GTunney wrote:If it helps at all I'm running Plex on my TS-453B and using the plex pass beta with hardware transcoding.

So far i have been able to transcode and stream 5 x 1080p mkv x264 with 20+mbps bitrate down to 720p 4mbps without a hitch. This is all I was able to test as my upload for my connection (20mbps) was maxed out.


i don't have plex pass :( i can't test that. nice info though :)

Did you try any x264 High@L5.1 10bit with bit rate roughly 8k or higher? at least that was the media type i had issue with. Also HEVC 10bit :?

1080p x264 High@L4.1 at bitate 8k under i don't remember having issue with that content.

tested on ts-653a. didn't have hardware transcoding at the time when i tested though.

mind if i add your review to my FAQ, as a baseline for recommendation to others for 653b transcoding capability? :mrgreen:
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by gggplaya » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:41 pm

The problem with powerline adapters is unless those devices are on the same breaker, then the signal must travel all the way down to the circuit breaker box, then back up to your devices in the other room. I've use several powerline adapters, including some that are rated as the best with MIMO etc.... But the best I could muster was a solid 100mbps connection. If you buy a wireless AC router and use it as a network bridge, you'll get much higher speeds than with powerline.

A better alternative I've found is MOCA adapters, they seem to run better than powerline with higher speeds near gigabit. You'll need to attach a small filter on your cable line where it enters the house but before it goes into the main splitter. Most people are getting over 500mbps with MOCA and MOCA works with cable tv, but does not work with satelite tv or multi-room DVR because multiroom DVR and multi-room tv box setups are using MOCA for transmission. If you're a cord cutter, you won't have anything to worry about.

If it were me, I'd keep the NAS on the router. The apple tv has wireless AC and will get plenty of speed at 7 meters. You only need a solid 30mbps connection from the router to the apple tv to play even large 10gb MKV's (h.264). This will be the most reliable setup when you're away from home and not home to trouble shoot adapters. I have 3 APPLE tv's in the house with 2 connected to wireless AC, neither have connection issues, and can maintain connection reliably everytime.

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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by dolbyman » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:44 pm

also ..why raid10?

a raid6 has better chances of surviving two disk failures

nicholson2002
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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by nicholson2002 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:36 pm

GTunney wrote:If it helps at all I'm running Plex on my TS-453B and using the plex pass beta with hardware transcoding..


Thanks, that's useful to know. May i ask how you are finding the TS-453B in general?

gggplaya wrote:The problem with powerline adapters is unless those devices are on the same breaker, then the signal must travel all the way down to the circuit breaker box, then back up to your devices in the other room. I've use several powerline adapters, including some that are rated as the best with MIMO etc.... But the best I could muster was a solid 100mbps connection.


My maximum download speed from the BT router is 50mbps. Is it technically possible for the Powerline to better this figure or is that the maximum available regardless of the Powerline?

gggplaya wrote:If you buy a wireless AC router and use it as a network bridge, you'll get much higher speeds than with powerline.


Thanks, I'll investigate that as an option. I don't know the first thing about using a network bridge but I will certainly look into it, it might be a good option for me.

gggplaya wrote:A better alternative I've found is MOCA adapters, they seem to run better than powerline with higher speeds near gigabit. You'll need to attach a small filter on your cable line where it enters the house but before it goes into the main splitter. Most people are getting over 500mbps with MOCA and MOCA works with cable tv, but does not work with satelite tv or multi-room DVR because multiroom DVR and multi-room tv box setups are using MOCA for transmission. If you're a cord cutter, you won't have anything to worry about.


Again, I don't know anything about the MOCA adapters but based on a thirty second Google search I suspect it might be a bit of overkill for our needs. Also, we live in a partment building in London that has satelite TV so, from what you've said, it may not be possible anyway.

I know only too well that I tend to want to over-engineer most things. There are only two of us and we generally only use one media device at the one time, ie we would only rarely have competitive calls on the media server. I am only just starting to set up a NAS/Media Server arrangement and my major concern is in making sure that, without going overboard, we are getting the best bang for our buck. We do a lot of overseas travel and although I obviously can't control the quality of the internet service we are getting overseas, we want to make sure that we are not limiting ourselves by poor decisions in our home environment. Also, of course, we will be home enough for it to be important that we have not limited our ability to enjoy our media without unnecessary interruption. Perhaps unreasonably, I find it very difficult to accept stuttering video for example and I'm prepared to pay more to make sure things just work.

gggplaya wrote:If it were me, I'd keep the NAS on the router. The apple tv has wireless AC and will get plenty of speed at 7 meters. You only need a solid 30mbps connection from the router to the apple tv to play even large 10gb MKV's (h.264). This will be the most reliable setup when you're away from home and not home to trouble shoot adapters. I have 3 APPLE tv's in the house with 2 connected to wireless AC, neither have connection issues, and can maintain connection reliably everytime.


I appreciate your advice. Makes a lot of sense.

dolbyman wrote:also ..why raid10?

a raid6 has better chances of surviving two disk failures


Please tell me if I'm simply wrong, but I thought that RAID10 would provide a faster solution than RAID5 or RAID6? II'm looking for the best combination of speed and redundancy and if that means getting higher capacity HDDs, so be it.

Thanks all for your great help. I'm still mighty confused but I'm slowly getting a better feel for some things.

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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by dolbyman » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:45 pm

not with your usage case...any config will hit your network speed limit

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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by nicholson2002 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:55 pm

dolbyman wrote:not with your usage case...any config will hit your network speed limit


Are you saying that my maximum router speed of 50mbps is the limiting factor and therefore it doesn't matter what I do?

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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by schumaku » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:11 pm

nicholson2002 wrote:
dolbyman wrote:not with your usage case...any config will hit your network speed limit
Are you saying that my maximum router speed of 50mbps is the limiting factor and therefore it doesn't matter what I do?
This was the response to the RAID10 ...

nicholson2002
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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by nicholson2002 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:17 pm

schumaku wrote:
nicholson2002 wrote:
dolbyman wrote:not with your usage case...any config will hit your network speed limit
Are you saying that my maximum router speed of 50mbps is the limiting factor and therefore it doesn't matter what I do?
This was the response to the RAID10 ...


Thanks :roll:

So, I get no advantage in speed from using RAID10 and I lose some redundancy. Is that right?

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Re: NAS on Powerline adaptor

Post by dolbyman » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:42 pm

nicholson2002 wrote:So, I get no advantage in speed from using RAID10 and I lose some redundancy. Is that right?


That is correct

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