First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Discussion on setting up QNAP NAS products.
mitchmitch
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First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by mitchmitch »

Hi everyone!
I've just bought my first NAS (the 4-bay TS453-D) and while waiting for the delivery, I was hoping you could help me plan the best setup?

We are 2 users in the household, each with ~4TB of personal data (our laptops but only data, not the OS) each. Both are currently syncing to their own Dropbox (realtime), and to their own USB3 drives (every ~3rd hour). I want the NAS to provide versioned backups of these drives.
In the living room we've got 3x4TB USB drives with 4K HDR movies, played back by a Vero4k (OSMC). I'd like to move all movies onto a networked drive.

My goals:
  • Move the 3x4TB movie drives onto the network for Vero to play from. Ideally also get streaming (to chromecast?) when traveling.
  • Versioned backup from 2 windows laptops (~4TB each, tops. just data, no OS). Ideally deduplicated, compressed and versioned.
  • Host 1 Ubuntu 20.04 webserver
  • Run bittorrent over VPN (preferably Mullvad / wireguard, as that's what we're currently using)
So far I have ordered:
  • QNAP TS-453D
  • 2x16GB of RAM
  • QM2-2P-244A (Dual PCIe NVMe expansion card))
  • 2x500gb NVMe drives
  • 12TB Seagate drive (for hosting the video files)
And this is as far as I've gotten in terms of hardware setup:
  • M.2: 2x500GB NVMe in RAID1 for system and VMs (Ubuntu server, git)
  • Bay 1: 12TB for 4K HDR movies and tv shows.
  • Bay 2: ???
  • Bay 3: ???
  • Bay 4: ???
What should I put in bays 2-4, and how do I best set the drives & filesystem up to serve our use case reasonably?
What apps / software should I be looking at?

Thanks in advance, for your time and effort!
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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

if i'm not mistaken, natively this nas supports m.2 sata?
https://www.qnap.com/en/product/ts-453d/specs/hardware

because it says requires addon card. These addon cards may be possible to add m.2 NVME. Make sure you check that whatever hardware you get is in the compatibility list for your nas. go to the product page, there is a compatibility list there.

are those seagate drives nas rated? e.g. seagate ironwolves? (this is what i use). Be specific :}


for initial setup check out videos by rob
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPPB0oG1EQQ


mike also has a couple of basic videos as well on his channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jawyy3vJKyI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpnk_nL58RM


and also by qnap
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zhVkfun3Hk



i'll explain the basic steps for initial setup

1. remove the qnap nas from packaging, plug in the ac power adapter, then add the ethernet cable from the NAS to a Switch. This switch is then connected to your router, or direct to the router itself.

2. power on the QNAP, press the power button. You have to remember not to long press the power button since that can do other stuff, check your manual downloadable from the product page to learn more about that.

3. on your desktop or laptop, install the qfinder app. Get this app from the qnap website for utility apps. Using qfinder, it will detect if your nas is detected by your pc. If it's detected, procede to the next step (remember hit the refresh if it's not listed)

4. then update your QNAP OS. You can do this a few ways. Using qfinder, or typing in the lan ip of the qnap nas then update via qts. Update your qts first thing.

5. Then initialize the nas. Go to qfinder and do smart initialize. It will pop up the qts browser and instruct you step by step for setting up the nas.

6. once done you can then login to qts via the lan ip typed into a web browser. If your not sure how, go qfinder right click the nas listed, then click open web administration.

7. Once in qts, i recommend you setup a static ip for your QNAP. It's under virtual switches.

If your router DHCP is say 192.168.0.40 to 192.168.0.150 with a subnet of 255.255.255.255

you can then set a lan ip that isn't the same as your dhcp e.g. 192.168.0.1-39 , 151-255
make sure the lan ip you pick also is not the same as any other device on your network.

The reason you set a static is so that your lan ip for the QNAP is fixed and doesn't constantly change. Yes you could just have simply let qnap use dhcp and let the router assign for you, but i find that setting a static ip on the qnap itself more reliable.

8. in windows 10 on your desktop/laptop, go to credential manager and add an entry for your NAS. Also make sure that network discovery is enabled if it isn't already.

9. Go to QTS, storage & snapshots. You can create your volumes here. First, setup the 2x m.2 nvme as a raid1 volume.

after that create the single disk volume for your 12tb hdd.

10. then go to qts shares, select the HDD volume as the location. You can use your own share names. examples of what i use is Storage1,Storage2, Storage. And within those shares, i create sub folders e.g. videos, music, pictures etc. Up to you how you want to organize that.

But basically once shares are created, you can then go to your windows 10 pc to browse for your NAS, open with file explorer, then browse those shares to copy/cut/delete files as you want.

But because your stuff is on a USB external drive, you should transfer your stuff from there onto your NAS by connecting those external usb to the qnap, then browse the contents using filestation, then copy the stuff from there to your QNAP created shares. When it completes, you should be able to access your stuff from the qnap via windows 10 windows explorer, OR via filestation in qts. Up to you how you want to access you files.




I don't use versioning so someone else can explain that.

If later you do add more hdds, probly add 2-3 more 12tb hdds so you can then do raid5.
http://www.raid-calculator.com/


if all you needed was 12tb of storage max i would have just used 4x 4tb or 4x 6tb hdds for raid5.



on side note, 2x 500gb used for qnap qts os, qnap QPKGS (native apps), vms and etc. Yes you setup for that. But however i'm not sure that 500gb is sufficient space for all of that, especially when tally in the ubuntu vms. I too had 500gb ssd x 2, but i don't use the vms too much so for myself this is fine. But for you not quite sure. Perhaps 2x 1tb m.2 nvme ssds would have been better. The pricing for 1tb m.2 nvmes aren't too bad these days :'



PS: raid scrub for your raids should be scheduled to be done once a month You have to configure for it if it's not setup yet.



2x16GB of RAM is this ram compatible? for myself i bought my own ram to replace the original. I checked the qnap forum first to find ram that was compatible with my nas model.
https://www.crucial.com/upgrades/qnap/qnap-nas
https://www.kingston.com/en/memory

there is also the ram from the official qnap store if you prefer
https://shop.qnap.com/


If you replace ram with non qnap ram, make sure you keep the original. or you may end not getting technical support if they claim you are not using the original ram by qnap. be mindful of that :'
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

for bit torrent on the qnap, there are a few ways you can go about this.

the torrent app can either be the native app from download station. although most of us find the app to be too basic. The other choice is a torrent qpkg, which you can get from here (e.g. qbittorrent or transmission)
https://qnapclub.eu/en

and the last option (which is a bit more complicated to setup), is to use qnap qpkg docker, to then grab whatever torrent client on docker to be used on your QNAP. If you don't understand about dockers, i recommend you stick to qpkgs until you learn more about how to correctly setup dockers for your QNAP. There is a lot you need to know especially how to SECURELY setup the permission rights for your docker.



For vpn for your torrenting, you can either set it on your router, OR on the QNAP NAS using QVPN app.

In qvpn you can set your QNAP gateway to use the QVPN for your mullvad vpn (i also use mullvad)


On router, if you don't want to vpn everything for your network connected to the router, you can do split tunneling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHtwVJt4AKo


Setting up VPN via the router is more preferable than qvpn, but the choice is yours.


After setting up torrent and vpn, use this to verify that you are not leaking your real ip "Torrent Address detection", it will ask you to download a torrent magnet to run this test
https://ipleak.net/
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

In regards to NAS, the security basics.

1. do not expose nas online ideally.
https://www.reddit.com/r/qnap/comments/ ... ation_and/

2. backup. Highly recommended.
https://www.reddit.com/r/qnap/comments/ ... _a_backup/

3. if you must do remote access (i don't) then use vpn for that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/qnap/comments/ ... _from_the/

don't use cloudlink or myqnapcloud, you don't need it. Yes using it makes it easier to get your nas to be accessible from online, but it's something you don't want to be doing, because you are exposing your nas.

4. update qts regularly BUT, BEFORE UPDATING, check the forum first. Look for threads similar to this one under the firmware forum section to see if other users confirmed if the firmware is stable or not, before updating.
viewtopic.php?f=142&t=160607

On the other end of the spectrum, going cold turkey and not updating at all is a very bad idea as well
https://www.qnap.com/en/security-advisories/

so in the end it's better to update, but to check before you leap so to speak :X


5. security counselor is a nifty app in qts appcenter which guides you to harden down your qnap nas security. HOWEVER this is not by any means comprehensive. It won't check that you properly configured your router (it doesn't know if you improperly exposed your nas and your entire lan to the internet), nor does it even know how you maintain the other devices on your network. Just be aware all this app does is provide a basic checklist of things on the nas you can edit to harden your nas. But this won't save you if you decided to expose your nas online :' so be mindful of this apps limitation. It's still good to guide newbies as to what settings in qts they should edit for security (or alerts you about something you forgot to change that was important)





I noticed that the qnap users that tend to have problems due to either (or both)

1. expose their nas online. And don't properly maintain their nas on top of that, among other poor practices.
2. they either don't update firmware at all, or they update immediately without first checking on forum if that firmware is stable or not

So if you want to avoid issues when using a qnap or any other nas brand for that matter, make sure u don't do the 2 bad practices i mentioned above :' This is not to say that even doing this you can avoid 100% of all issues. There was that one time there was a raid5/6 bug that went undetected for months before it got patched (realistically you aren't going to wait months before you update. at most people wait a week or a month at most before updating. sooner if there is a critical issue that got patched). But that was a rare exception, and that affected other nas brands as well, not just qnap.
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:39 pm, edited 8 times in total.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

Host 1 Ubuntu 20.04 webserver
u mean a public website anyone on the internet can access? if so, then i don't recommend that at all.

if u want a public website, use something like bluehost which is cheap, or something :'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0lHHJvPkK8


honestly i don't think a nas can easily do that safely, especially without being technically savvy to understand and deal with the issues with that :'




Anyway my final advice is to checkout the youtube channels to find more videos about qts so you can learn about the features and how to configure them. Browse around qts every now and then to a new setting in the UI you are not familiar with. over time you will know your way around QTS, and it will be simple to understand. What you don't understand, refer to the manual from the product page, use the youtube, or use the forum search. There is also a qnap reddit with lots of info there as well. And if none of that helps, then ask on forum (after first trying to do a search first. don't simply expect to be spoonfed without putting some effort into it first :) )
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
AlFromCochrane
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by AlFromCochrane »

Hi mitchmitch,

Moogle is on this for you. That's a good thing.

But perhaps I might add, in layman's terms, to answer your question about which drives to put into bays 2, 3 and 4 the answer is 3 more drives identical to what you put in bay 1. It is best not to mis match drives. And with a NAS, you really don't want to think of each drive as a separate storage location. That is the beauty of a NAS. Follow Moogle's recommendations with that in mind so that you set up a decent RAID configuration. your will not be sorry for going NAS... cheers,
best regards, Allan

Firmware Version:Always updated
TS-873 32GB Ram, 8 x 8TB Seagate IronWolf NAS Model: ST8000VN0022,
45 TB total RAID 6 storage pool, M.2 SSD slots empty, Unit for offsite HDD Backups:
Vantec Nexstar MX NST-400MX-S3R-Utilizing 2x WD 8TB Red),
network services/apps: PuTTY, Media server apps, HBS, Plex .
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

when creating raid, it's often asked, what is the difference between thick and thin
https://www.qnap.com/en/how-to/knowledg ... ick-volume


long story short, use thick, because it has all the features and has fewer issues for maintaining. there are some cons for thin, you can search the forum to find out about that.

By default thick will auto allocate 50% of your total usable space. If you require more usable space, you go to storage manager & snapshots, and in one of the settings there (it's buried in there somewhere), you can adjust the % value from 50 up to 100%

Usually it's not recommended to go straight to 100%, but just allocate more as you require more space.

You can also set a threshold alarm that makes the NAS beep noise when your storage capacity reaches the set threshold, so you can then decide to allocate more space, or expans with new hdds, OR replace existing hdds for higher capacity ones.
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
mitchmitch
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by mitchmitch »

AlFromCochrane wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:10 am [...] With a NAS, you really don't want to think of each drive as a separate storage location. [...]
This is the information I am looking for, and that Moogle left out of their otherwise exhaustive advice. How should I be thinking about this storage in terms of physical drives, filesystems, volumes and/or raid?
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

it's in the youtube videos i linked :/

and you're welcome
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
mitchmitch
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by mitchmitch »

Thanks for the input. My take-aways so far:
  • What is the difference between static, thin and thick volume?
  • QnapClub provides apps, like QBitorrent, wireguard and Eaton Intelligent Power Protector
  • The default QVPN app should work with Mullvad. Not sure if I can set it up to only route Download Station over the VPN (the Ubuntu server must have direct access). Might be easiest to set up my own "download station" on the Ubuntu VM and not bother with software on the QNAP at all. Note to self: Docker is an option.
  • In terms of the storage, RAID seem to complicate life and provide no measurable benefit. RAID could provide more write speed, but at the cost of a) more power use, b) more drives to fail. Since there are no real-time loads on the system this additional speed is of little value, and could be more efficiently achieved by adding an SSD cache in one of the bays. RAID could provide some redundancy, but at the cost of a) more power use, b) more money. Since the NAS is the 3rd link of our backup chain it is already redundant.
So far it seems I might just add one additional 12TB drive for the user data. Adding more capacity makes no sense since the extra drives are likely to die of age before we ever need the space (depending on how good the backup deduplication is). For the movie storage... I don't know. Could just climb the capacity treadmill and replace the drive every other Black Friday.

If write speed is too low I might add a smaller SSD drive to one of the bays and use that as a write cache. But I expect, with 32GB of RAM, the device should have a deep enough buffer already.
Last edited by mitchmitch on Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by dolbyman »

never use a single ssd for write cache..always raid1 or higher for that
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by mitchmitch »

It can not possibly matter? The worst thing that could happen is that the cache is destroyed before being committed to disk. In which case that data will be uploaded again at the next sync.
Last edited by mitchmitch on Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by dolbyman »

non destaged write cache data is lost and the volume corrupted .. not sure what you mean by "next time"
mitchmitch
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by mitchmitch »

We're backing up from a source, non? That source is fine and will upload whatever isn't already on the NAS at the next possible opportunity. One failed sync does not a disaster make.

You claim that a failure to empty the cache leads to volume corruption. That would mean you'd loose your volume every time the power fails during a write. This can not possibly be the case, can it? Not even an ancient filesystem like EXT4 is that crappy, unless maliciously configured. At most it should roll-back the incomplete write, correct the journal and carry on.
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Re: First time user, help me plan the setup (QNAP TS-453D)

Post by dolbyman »

Power failures often lead to corrupted volumes (that's why a UPS is strongly suggested)

But you can always try .. remove your single cachedrive (hot if SATA) and see what happens.

Even in Cache setup, QNAP strongly advises again write cache on a single drive.
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