Reasons to pair TVS-h874 with TL-D800S (JBOD)

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crazyquokkas
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Reasons to pair TVS-h874 with TL-D800S (JBOD)

Post by crazyquokkas »

I'd be really interested in hearing opinions on my plan to pair a TL-D800S (also considering TL-D800C?) with my current TVS-h874 NAS running QuTS Hero.

Backstory: Until recently I had been running a TVS-873 QTS NAS with 6 x HDD under RAID 5. Unfortunately the NAS suddenly developed motherboard issues during a routine firmware upgrade. After working with QNAP tech support it became obvious the TVS-873 wasn't recoverable without an expensive RMA. So, I upgraded by replacing it with a TVS-h874 NAS which is temporarily running QTS, although I'm planning to install QuTS Hero shortly with 6 x HDD under RAID 6.

After recovering my data this time (which has been quite an undertaking), I'm trying to work out a way of ensuring a critical hardware issue, such as the motherboard failure I've just experienced, does not land me in a similar situation in future.

I'm already backing up my most critical data to the cloud in the event the NAS is lost through fire or some other natural disaster, but this is just a small subset.

For the rest of my data, the RAID 6 configuration which includes hot spares on the TVS-h874 should take care of any sudden drive issues.

However, to prevent loss via motherboard failure (which unfortunately seems a real risk with QNAP hardware), I'm proposing to connect a TL-D800S configured as JBOD to the main TVS-h874 NAS and use HBS 3.0 to sync all changes from the TVS-h874 to the TL-D800S.

I realise this probably sounds like overkill, but I can't think of any other way to cater for a potential future critical hardware fault occurring in my main TVS-h874 NAS.

Thoughts?
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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: Reasons to pair TVS-h874 with TL-D800S (JBOD)

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

crazyquokkas wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:39 am I'd be really interested in hearing opinions on my plan to pair a TL-D800S (also considering TL-D800C?) with my current TVS-h874 NAS running QuTS Hero.

Backstory: Until recently I had been running a TVS-873 QTS NAS with 6 x HDD under RAID 5. Unfortunately the NAS suddenly developed motherboard issues during a routine firmware upgrade. After working with QNAP tech support it became obvious the TVS-873 wasn't recoverable without an expensive RMA. So, I upgraded by replacing it with a TVS-h874 NAS which is temporarily running QTS, although I'm planning to install QuTS Hero shortly with 6 x HDD under RAID 6.

After recovering my data this time (which has been quite an undertaking), I'm trying to work out a way of ensuring a critical hardware issue, such as the motherboard failure I've just experienced, does not land me in a similar situation in future.

I'm already backing up my most critical data to the cloud in the event the NAS is lost through fire or some other natural disaster, but this is just a small subset.

For the rest of my data, the RAID 6 configuration which includes hot spares on the TVS-h874 should take care of any sudden drive issues.

However, to prevent loss via motherboard failure (which unfortunately seems a real risk with QNAP hardware), I'm proposing to connect a TL-D800S configured as JBOD to the main TVS-h874 NAS and use HBS 3.0 to sync all changes from the TVS-h874 to the TL-D800S.

I realise this probably sounds like overkill, but I can't think of any other way to cater for a potential future critical hardware fault occurring in my main TVS-h874 NAS.

Thoughts?

why is your new nas running qts? is it because you did nas migration? :'

But it's good you realize the importance of a backup. because raid is not a backup
https://www.reddit.com/r/qnap/comments/ ... _a_backup/


the 3-2-1 backup strategy is having your NAS, a local backup (this is so you can do a speedy backup and recovery), and a remote backup (usually cloud. or an offsite nas reachable by VPN. this backup protects you against theft, fires and environmental disasters).

whether you want to only do a local backup, or also have a offsite backup, either is fine (but for completeness 3-2-1 is the better plan). But no backup at all is a bad idea unless you don't care for the data stored at all.


not sure if raid6/raidz2 is needed for 6 drives, but for 4 drives, raid5/raidz is good enough.

https://www.raidz-calculator.com/raidz- ... rence.aspx

this site you can calculate if 6 drives rebuild success rate
https://magj.github.io/raid-failure/

example raid5 for 6 drives 4tb capacity each is 85% rebuild success rate, seems good enough for me. I would still have a backup so even if it does fail, i would then simply recover from the backup.

using this calculator we can compare usable space between raid5 and raid6
https://www.qnap.com/en/selector/raid-selector


raid6 Usable Space: 12.5 TB

raid5 Usable Space: 15.7 TB


so in this example for 6 drives, 4tb capacity each, using raid5 there is a 85% raid rebuild success rate, and you get a few terabyte more usable space. the main con is that you don't get the benefit of raid6 for allowing 2 failed drives. raid5 only allows 1 fail drive while keeping the raid intact albeit in degraded mode until swapping out the bad drive. but if 2 bad drives fail simultaneously in raid5, then that whole raid is capoot.

but with a backup you could still recover from that. so with that in mind, isn't raidz/raid5 better if mostly cause u get more usable space and still within acceptable limits (just understand what those conditions are as i highlighted above).


I don't know what size capacity drives you are using, but you can run them through the calculator using my example to determine whether to use raid5/raidz, or raid6/raidz2 for the number of drives and capacity size you plan to use.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
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Re: Reasons to pair TVS-h874 with TL-D800S (JBOD)

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

for that TL-D800S, if you plan to use as JBOD mode, then you can probably set it up as an external storage. meaning that if the QNAP NAS dies, you can connect that TL box to your desktop pc and still access the data.

But if you plan to setup the TL box using raid (in my case i use a TL-D400S with 4 drives), then your raid options are limited.

Like example
QNAP JBOD Manager

Notes:
1. You can set up new software RAID groups in [Windows Storage Spaces] in Windows 8/10/11 (or later versions).
2. Windows Server 2012 R2 (or later version) users can set up new software RAID groups in [Server Manager].
3. Ubuntu users need to pass commands into [mdadm] to set up new software RAID groups.
4. Does not support macOS.
https://www.qnap.com/en/product/tl-d800s
https://www.qnap.com/en/utilities?utili ... od+manager


windows storage spaces fake raid i don't recommend this, performance is bad. option 2 and 3 i never tried before so no comment on that.

but what i did try was setting up the raid5 using 4 drives via QTS. in this setup, if the QNAP NAS breaks down and cannot be used, then you cannot access the shares on the TL box if you setup in that way for raid via qts. You would need to buy a new working QNAP NAS that supports the TL box, in order to access your backup on that TL box.

I just wanted to point this limitation for the TL box.

But if you are using as JBOD, then you probably should be fine, since that can be setup using the software JBOD manager, and isn't reliant on having the QNAP NAS to access the share.

However this tl box uses an QXP pcie addon card for the SFF-8088 cable connector. So if the QNAP becomes inaccessible, then you would need to install this addon to your desktop pc so you can plug from tl box to pc via that pcie addon, in order to access the share.




Mode 1: Expand NAS capacity by storage pool mode
You can use Storage & Snapshots Manager in QTS or QuTS hero to configure the RAID storage pool for your TL-D800S and expand NAS capacity.

Note: The TL-D800S can only be used as an individual storage pool or volume on the NAS. Its storage pool or volume cannot be combined into the connected NAS. NAS applications cannot be installed on the TL-D800S.


Mode 2: Expand your NAS by external storage mode
You can treat each disk on your TL-D800S as an individual storage space and expand your NAS capacity. For example, it will show 8 independent external disks on an 8-bay NAS.

Note: The TL-D800S supports multiple disk formats, including NTFS (for Windows), HFS+ (for Mac), EXT4 (for Ubuntu or QNAP NAS), exFAT (for Windows, Mac, Ubuntu, and QNAP NAS) etc.


Scenario 3: Expand the storage space of your Windows® and Ubuntu® computers
You can use your TL-D800S to expand the storage space of Windows® and Ubuntu® computers. You can set up the RAID configuration of your TL-D800S to further secure data protection. Moreover, you can also use the single disk mode and format with exFAT file system for more convenient access and sharing of files between Windows® and Ubuntu® computers.

Note:
1. The QNAP JBOD Manager supports Windows 8/10/11 (or later versions), Windows Server 2012 R2 (or later versions), Ubuntu 18.04/ 20.04 LTS (or later versions).
2. Because Windows® and Ubuntu® operating systems are incompatible, the TL-D800S does not support cross-platform sharing after the RAID configuration setup.


Scenario 4: Third-party hardware RAID card for advanced protection
You can install third-party hardware RAID cards on your TL-D800S for advanced hardware RAID 1, RAID 5, RAID 6, RAID 10, RAID 50, and RAID 60 protection and use Windows® utility software to manage your TL-D800S.

Note: The third-party hardware RAID card cannot be used simultaneously with QNAP JBOD manager and QXP series PCIe cards.


For mode 1 (this is what i am using to setup raid5 for my 4tb x 4 drives), this is not ideal for the situation if the nas becomes inaccessible. problem i mentioned earlier.

mode 2. I don't like this mode because they are single disks. You can't make a single storage pool. It's inconvenient to juggle storage space between separate drives. only good thing about this, it will work as an external storage so the data will be accessible even if the qnap nas dies, you can just connect it to a desktop pc instead.

mode 3. windows storage spaces is bad so i don't recommend. ubuntu setup no idea how that works.

mode 4. this one seems similar like the the TR series. in this setup, you can have an external storage using raid hardware. This will protect you in the event the QNAP nas can't be used, but you still want to access the data on a standard desktop pc. so this will work in that situation.

but before you do, watch wendels video on this topic of hardware raids

Hardware Raid is Dead and is a Bad Idea in 2022
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l55GfAwa8RI



For the tl box, read carefully the notes so you understand more. I just highlighted the important parts to consider especially you want to use it as a backup
https://www.qnap.com/en/product/tl-d800s
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: Reasons to pair TVS-h874 with TL-D800S (JBOD)

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

Besides the TL-D800S which uses the SFF cable, there is the TL-D800C which uses USB type C.

The advantage for the TL - C series, is the fact you can simply plug and play using usb type c. Compared to the TL - S series where you have to install/remove the QXP addon card if you need to access from a different device (this can be awkward and a bit inconvenient compared to the usb model)


QNAP TL-D800C Setup and Review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWdQIrynI9g


in review above they mention the usb bottleneck if plan to add to an array. is that why the sff option the reason why that is available to solve that? :' just something for you to dyor if you want.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
crazyquokkas
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Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:32 am

Re: Reasons to pair TVS-h874 with TL-D800S (JBOD)

Post by crazyquokkas »

Hi Moogle Stiltzkin - many thanks for your replies, advice and links to useful information.

Answers to some of the questions you've raised....

> why is your new nas running qts? is it because you did nas migration? :'
Yes, correct. I attempted to migrate my existing 6 x 10TB HDD's from TVS-873 to TVS-h874 following the motherboard issues with the 873 device. To try that I was advised to ensure both devices were running the same version of QTS. This ultimately didn't work and I've had to recover my data via other methods. Once that process is complete (which it just about is), I intend to setup the TVS-h874 with QuTS Hero.

> I don't know what size capacity drives you are using
TVS-h874 will feature 6 x 14TB HDD and after reading your comments I'll configure using RAID 5
TL-D800C (yes, I've decided to make life easier by relying on the more readily available/accessible USB-C connection rather than the SATA connector) will feature 5 x 10TB HDD + 1 x 12TB HDD and I'll configure JBOD.

I'm not planning to include the TL-D800C in the RAID storage pool of the TVS-h874. Instead, It'll be completely independent disk storage that will remain fully accessible incase of a future hardware issue with the TVS-h874 ie true backup.

> 3-2-1 is the better plan
I couldn't agree more. My most critical data will continue to be backed up to the cloud. The remainder will be backed up on the TL-D800C using Hybrid Backup Sync 3. I think I'm just about to move forward with implementing my plan.

Again, many thanks for your assistance and advice.
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