Advice for new NAS and virtualisation

Interested in our products? Post your questions here. Let us answer before you buy.
Post Reply
millow
New here
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:12 am

Advice for new NAS and virtualisation

Post by millow »

Hi all,

I am seeking advice for a new NAS purchase and would welcome any suggestions from this community.

Here’s what I intend to use the NAS for, as well as some details on my environment and my requirements:
  • - Environment: home with 5 clients on 1 GbE and 3 on WiFi
    - Estimated storage needs: 5 TB now, up to 20 TB within 5 years
    - Video streaming within LAN to Apple TV 4 and iPad (both using Infuse Pro)
    - Virtualisation of at least one Windows (7 or 10) and two Docker containers
    - Time Machine for 3 Apple computers
    - OpenVPN server to allow remote access to the LAN
    - Storage of files for content creation (large quantity of videos and pictures)
    - Hosting of a few lightweight PHP web apps for access within LAN
    - Pictures organisation with web gallery
Some of my data is used for work (vlogging and pictures) and it is important that it is safe. Therefore I’m thinking of using RAID 10 or RAID 6 with off-site backups.

Looking at the current QNAP products, I'm considering one of the following:
  • - TS-453Bmini
    - TS-453B
    - TVS-463
    - TVS-563
I am particularly interested in eliminating some machines running on my LAN by using Virtualisation Station and Docker but I am not sure how well any of the above NASes would perform… Docker would be used to run an Ubiquiti Controller and a small home automation app. The Windows VM would be used mostly with lightweight apps and infrequent web browsing.

Which NAS from the above list do you think fit my needs the best?

Are there any other NASes I should consider?

Thanks!
User avatar
Trexx
Ask me anything
Posts: 5388
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:50 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: Advice for new NAS and virtualisation

Post by Trexx »

How many concurrent usage streams from your list will you have at once? You list 8 clients, but not how many are going to concurring at once.
  • More concurrent users equals more disk I/O & NW bandwidth.
  • More spindles is better in this case and also port trunking.
What quality Video/Photo are you dealing with (720p, 1080p, 4k etc)? How much video editing are you doing, and are you doing it on say a desktop and copying final output to NAS, or would you be storing/editing the files directly from the NAS.
  • Again Disk I/O is important as well as even 10GbE capability when you get into working with 4k files.
Time Machine for 3 machines will eat up more storage than you think. I have 1 machine and it is taking about 1TB just for TM.

Does your ISP have data caps? That will impact how realistic using offsite/cloud backup is vs. using say External USB drives.

In terms of VM, all of those models have very BASIC level CPU's for VM's. They are Celeron class CPU's, so the WIndows install/updates will take longer, screen refresh, etc.

From a model standpoint, smallest I would look at (with some future proofing capability via PCIe expansion slot) is the x53B family. If you have a fair amount of concurrent usage, I would probably look at the 653b to get the extra spindles support.

The step up would be the TVS-x73 family which would give you about 2x boost in CPU, integrated m.2 SATA support, 10GbE option, etc.

Remember bigger drives, while giving you more storage, doesn't give you more IOPs. So if you are using (4) 7200 RPM Drives (HGST, WD Red Pro, etc.) you will get about ~400 IOPs regardless of whether they are 3TB drives or 6TB drives. You get even fewer IOPS with 5x00 RPM Drives (WD Red, smaller IronWolf, etc.) at around ~320 for (4) drives.

The only way to add IOPs is to add spindles, or leverage SSD's (either m.2, or 2.5/3.5") although in some cases the new SSD's aren't really much faster than HDD's due to vendor choices.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/consum ... 34631.html
Paul

Model: TS-877-1600 FW: 4.5.3.x
QTS (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x 1TB WD Blue m.2's
Data (HDD): [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar
VMs (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x1TB SK Hynix Gold
Ext. (HDD): TR-004 [Raid-5] 4 x 4TB HGST Ultastor
RAM: Kingston HyperX Fury 64GB DDR4-2666
UPS: CP AVR1350

Model:TVS-673 32GB & TS-228a Offline[/color]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Plex NAS Compatibility Guide | QNAP Plex FAQ | Moogle's QNAP Faq
millow
New here
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:12 am

Re: Advice for new NAS and virtualisation

Post by millow »

Thanks for taking the time to give me some advice Trexx.

Here are the answers to your questions:
  • How many concurrent usage streams from your list will you have at once? I can foresee 2 to 3 simultaneous clients. Maximum two would be streaming videos at the same time.
  • How much video editing are you doing, and are you doing it on say a desktop and copying final output to NAS, or would you be storing/editing the files directly from the NAS. Editing will be done on a desktop computer or MacBook Pro and later the content will be stored on the NAS.
  • What quality Video/Photo are you dealing with (720p, 1080p, 4k etc)? Mostly 1080p, and some 4k videos. Probably the 4k portion will increase over time.
  • Does your ISP have data caps? No, my ISP doesn't have caps. Actually what I meant is that I am planning to take weekly backups via USB and store the disk(s) at another location in the meantime.
About Time Machine: I am currently using Synology NAS and it is possible to cap the usage of disk space for Time Machine. Is this also possible with QNAP?

After doing some more reading on QNAP Apps I realised they recently released Browser Station that will probably further reduce my need for the Windows machine (at least for the web browsing part).

I wasn't sure about the 6 disk units such as the TS-653B would be worth considering for my use case and capacity needs but I didn't consider the extra IOPS. Also for the TVS-473 I was reluctant due to the significantly higher price but as you mentioned the CPU bump is significant as well...

Which one do you think would make the most sense now that I answered your questions?
User avatar
Trexx
Ask me anything
Posts: 5388
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 7:50 am
Location: Minnesota

Re: Advice for new NAS and virtualisation

Post by Trexx »

Here are my thoughts:
  • InFuse Pro helps in that you won't be doing any video transcoding on the NAS, just dealing with I/O & bandwidth needs. Downside is though that if you are doing multiple streams of different content, that turns the individual sequential read behavior into Random Read behavior (i.e. more disk "thrashing").
  • Since you are doing all the editing on local desktop, then we are just talking about storage capacity and transfer time (1GbE vs. 10GbE impact). As 4k usage grows, 10GbE may become more and more important to reduce copy/read times.
  • Good plan on backups
Yes for TimeMachine, you can set a capacity "cap" for usage, but that is not a per machine cap. So if you set it for say 1TB, that is 1TB that is shared by ALL time machine users (i.e. 3 machines).

I don't know if browser station is going to remove your VM need or not. If you were wanting a VM to say test website/photo layout views when using IE/Edge, Browser Station isn't going to be able to do that for you as it only emulates chrome/webkit type browsers.

Also in the scheme of system load, the browser (unless you are doing video streaming) generally doesn't add a whole lot on top of the OS overhead. So while browser station might take a little load out of your VM, you are adding additional load in the form of another containerized application (browser station requires container station). Container Station requires minimum of 4GB just to run. Window VM's like minimum 2-4GB (especially Win7/10). So on the smaller QNAPs that max out at 8GB, memory could become more of a concern if you have several larger containers as well as a VM running at the same time.

In your use case, I would go with a 6 bay model. Right now the sweat spot for cost/GB is 4TB, so if you started with say a 3-drive RAID-5 setup using 4TB drives (I personally have been using HGST Deskstar NAS drives), you will get about ~7.5ish TB usable storage to start. As your storage/IO needs grow, you then just continue to add additional 4TB drives to the RAID group. You would get a little shy of 20TB useable once you hit all 6 drives.

At that point you either add an expansion chassis, transplant to a bigger NAS, or swap out for larger drives. One thing to keep in mind on the larger drive swap out, ALL drives have to be larger size before you will get space lift if they are in a RAID-5 group.

As for x53b vs. x73, you get more horsepower and expansion out of the box on the x73. Some of the capabilities you can add to the x53b (m.2 SSD, 10GbE), but there is no option to upgrade CPU, add additional slots, expand max memory limit, etc. If you outgrow the NAS, you are buying another one.

TS-653b w/4GB runs $989ish (amazon us)
TS-653b w/8GB (max memory) runs $1122
TVS-673 w/8GB runs $1149

So at 6 bays the TVS is almost the same price for a lot more box (2x CPU, DDR4 vs. DDR3, 64GB max vs. 8GB, m.2 SATA included, etc.).

At 6 drive bay size, the TVS-673 is a no brainer to me vs the 653b. At 4 drive bay, the price delta is a little steeper and the decision a little more involved.

Myself I tend to go for more horsepower on the HW front as my needs usually grow over time as I figure out more things I can do with it, and you can't easily upgrade CPU/expansion capabilities on the majority of NAS models without swapping the box out.
Paul

Model: TS-877-1600 FW: 4.5.3.x
QTS (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x 1TB WD Blue m.2's
Data (HDD): [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar
VMs (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x1TB SK Hynix Gold
Ext. (HDD): TR-004 [Raid-5] 4 x 4TB HGST Ultastor
RAM: Kingston HyperX Fury 64GB DDR4-2666
UPS: CP AVR1350

Model:TVS-673 32GB & TS-228a Offline[/color]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Plex NAS Compatibility Guide | QNAP Plex FAQ | Moogle's QNAP Faq
millow
New here
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:12 am

Re: Advice for new NAS and virtualisation

Post by millow »

In Europe the prices are as follows:

- QNAP TS-653B w/4 GB RAM: 798,71 € (~ 915 $) [amazon.de]
- QNAP TS-653B w/8 GB RAM: 918,58 € (~ 1053 $) [amazon.de]
- QNAP TVS-673 w/8 GB RAM: 1184,46 € (~ 1358 $) [amazon.de]

This pricing makes the decision a bit less of a "no brainer" but I think I'll be considering going for the TVS-673 as I'm planning to keep this NAS for at least 4 to 5 years.

Thanks so much for the help!
Post Reply

Return to “Presales”