Which raid with 8 disks?

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camaxide
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Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by camaxide »

I'm looking to get a NAS for safe storage, and I'm looking for a 8disk setup.
I want some input on which RAID type I should chose, and what the various benefits are.

from reading I find that
* Raid 1 is only for two drives, and gives 50% storage?
* Raid 10 can run over 8 drives and will ensure one drive can fail, and give 50% storage?
* Raid 5 can run over 8 drives and gives 7 of 8 drives storage - where any one drive can fail and be replaced?
* Raid 6 can run over 8 drives and gives 6 of 8 drives storage - where any two drives can fail and be replaced?

I want to be able to have two locations, so I can store "open" files on one location and private files which only I can access on another. Would I then need to set up two arrays? or can I split this up on folder-level on a typical NAS?
Also - which raids can have additional drives added to them later? and is it important, or is it simply better to add a new array if I need more space later?

I look at 8, 10 or 12 TB drives, so I'd also like to know if there are any limitations to Array sizes.. and does an array basicly work like a normal "drive letter" as far as browsing folders goes?

I hope for some good input, as I know nothing about raids or NAS until I recently started reading up on it to get one :) it's important for me that I get save storage so that a failed drive can be replaced without losing my data.
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OneCD
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by OneCD »

Hi and welcome to the forum. :)

It sounds like you've decided on an 8-bay NAS. Cool.
camaxide wrote:I want some input on which RAID type I should chose, and what the various benefits are.
For 8 disks, use RAID 6. Keep it simple.
camaxide wrote:I want to be able to have two locations, so I can store "open" files on one location and private files which only I can access on another. Would I then need to set up two arrays? or can I split this up on folder-level on a typical NAS?
No, create a single array, then decide afterward which parts will be accessible by whom.
camaxide wrote:Also - which raids can have additional drives added to them later? and is it important, or is it simply better to add a new array if I need more space later?
With RAID 6, you can add drives to this array (if you have unused drive-bays in the NAS), or you can increase the size of all existing drives later by following the processes shown in the user manual. It's usually recommended that all drives in the array are of the same capacity, make and model. An array is built based upon the capacity of the smallest drive. Please ensure you load your new NAS with drives shown on the QNAP hardware compatibility list.

For an 8-bay NAS, I suggest keeping an extra drive handy as a cold-spare (an unused drive kept in a desk-drawer, but ready to replace a failed NAS drive at short-notice). The more drives spinning in the NAS, the more likely it is one will fail at some random time. My first NAS had 5 drives - one of which failed after only a month of operation.
camaxide wrote:I look at 8, 10 or 12 TB drives, so I'd also like to know if there are any limitations to Array sizes
No. As long as your initial array size is greater than 16TB, you can increase it all you want (but the 16TB boundary on expansion may no longer exist - another community member is welcome to confirm or refute this). The upper limit on arrays is quite large.
camaxide wrote:..and does an array basicly work like a normal "drive letter" as far as browsing folders goes?
No. You create "shares" on the NAS. Each share looks at a different part of the filesystem on the array. From your Windows PC, you're able to attach to each share and assign it a drive letter. These days, drive letters are not really required, but you may need them for legacy software, etc... It's more common to just specify a network path.

Some example share names might be: "Movies", "Videos", "Pictures", "Downloads". As the NAS administrator, you decide each share's permissions.
  • Very important - please read before you purchase anything:
    You'll need somewhere external to the NAS to backup all that data. This might mean buying extra drives to connect via USB or eSATA which is something you should do when buying drives for the NAS. If you're buying 8 x 8TB drives for the NAS to use as RAID 6, you'll need another 6 x 8TB drives to use externally if the array is to be filled to capacity after installation. So, 14 x 8TB drives. Your externals don't need to be of the same size. You could use 4 x 12TB drives externally if you wish. But you probably won't fill the array with data immediately, so just purchase enough to hold a second copy of the data in the array.

    You would then connect each drive on a schedule (say, once per week), backup your data, then disconnect them.
It's great having a big, always-on box full of large hard-drives with your whole media library in there, but it also means you have a lot to lose. Things can and do go wrong, and the existence of your backups will be one of the first questions asked if you post here looking for recovery assistance. ;)

With no backups, your only recourse may be to use an expensive (and sometimes ineffective) data-recovery service.

You are the only person responsible for your data. Not the NAS or hard-drive makers. You.

Also recommend you purchase a UPS for your NAS.

Good luck! :geek:

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P3R
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by P3R »

Great advice from OneCD here. I'll just add a few things.
OneCD wrote:For 8 disks, use RAID 6.
I agree. RAID 6 will give the best disk redundancy, which is necessary with 8 huge disks. It also offer more usable capacity than RAID 10 and in most cases better performance.
No, create a single array, then decide afterward which parts will be accessible by whom.
I agree. Preferably use a separate shared folder with rights only for you. The personal shared folder can also be hidden to Windows users.
It's usually recommended that all drives in the array are of the same capacity, make and model.[/url]
Qnap PMs have said that isn't necessary. Mixing compatible disks shouldn't be a problem.

In one RAID 6 arraý I'm using 5 old Hitachi 2 TB SATA 3.0 Gbit/s disks together with 3*3 TB Hitachi Ultrastar. In a RAID 5 array I use 2*4 TB Seagate Enterprise Capacity, one Seagate 3 TB Enterprise NAS and one 3 TB Hitach Ultrastar. Of course the smallest disks will limit capacity and the slowest disks will limit performance but other than that, it works great.
No. As long as your initial array size is greater than 16TB, you can increase it all you want (but the 16TB boundary on expansion may no longer exist - another community member is welcome to confirm or refute this).
In older models, also known as cat1, RAID migration/expansion doesn't work if the resulting volume is 16 TB or larger. It doesn't matter if we start below or above 16 TB. It is possible to create larger volumes from scratch but RAID migration/expansion never works above 16 TB.

With storage pools in cat2 models, I'm aware of no RAID migration/expansion limits.

All of the above assumes Intel/AMD CPU models. Some ARM CPU models may have specific volume limitations but I know no details about that.

Edit: fixed bad formatting.
Last edited by P3R on Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
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OneCD
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by OneCD »

P3R wrote:With storage pools in cat2 models, I'm aware of no RAID migration/expansion limits.
Ah, no worries. Thank you. :geek:

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reader50
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by reader50 »

P3R wrote:Some ARM CPU models may have specific volume limitations but I know no details about that.
If the QTS 4.3.x manual is accurate, the ARM-based models still have the 16TB limit. Resize works up to 16TB. Anything larger has to be created at the larger size, and cannot be resized. You'd have to create a bigger replacement array in the future (and have the spare bays), then copy everything across. Before decommissioning the old array.
camaxide
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by camaxide »

Wow, thanks for very quick and full response, lots of good info here.
My original idea was to run Raid 10, as I was planing to use 4 x 8TB drives (32TB data) then the other 4 x 8TB as "backup" through the disk mirroring.
I've read this is only a "backup" as to save me from disk failure, and not error-deletion of files, as those deletions would be mirrored of course.
Is Raid6 still the go-to for this, or would no RAID really be good for backup.. what if I make 2 arrays of 4 x 8TB? could I then have the NAS do a daily or weekly incremental backup from one array to the other, and run both arrays with full storage? (Total storage of 32 TB)
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OneCD
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by OneCD »

camaxide wrote:I've read this is only a "backup" as to save me from disk failure, and not error-deletion of files, as those deletions would be mirrored of course.
Is Raid6 still the go-to for this, or would no RAID really be good for backup.. what if I make 2 arrays of 4 x 8TB? could I then have the NAS do a daily or weekly incremental backup from one array to the other, and run both arrays with full storage? (Total storage of 32 TB)
No, because that way isn't backup. Backups are only performed external to the NAS. If your NAS power-supply decides to end-it-all one day and fry all your hard-drives, you've lost everything.

RAID is there to provide some protection against disk failure. There's no need to make multiple copies of your data inside the NAS too. ;)

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camaxide
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by camaxide »

OneCD wrote: No, because that way isn't backup. Backups are only performed external to the NAS. If your NAS power-supply decides to end-it-all one day and fry all your hard-drives, you've lost everything.
Can that actually happen? I've never heard about a computer's power-supply break the disks inside it.. any psu-failure I've ever heard of only meant replacing the PSU and rock on. if the NAS can't function as a backup it's function is quite nerfed for my use, as I don't need the media encoding parts etc, as much. I am going to use it to store files in a safer way so they are not lost if one of my drives fail :)

How about the following then.. could I set up two arrays (or one with just two different main folders) on the nas where (1) would simply store offloaded media and files that does not need real backup - and (2) an area that would automatically store backup of chosen folders on my computers (this could also be done manually if that's easier)

Everything on (2) would then also be stored on my computer(s) so as such the NAS (2) would be the actual backup.. and if either NAS or Computer dies, I can still replace either of them and not lose my files.
I guess in this last case I'd not really need to use raid to make it work, but I guess it's still better to run Raid to have that extra safety net, and to also be able to give (1) a second chance in case a drive says bye bye

I'm very happy for all the input, it's a large investment to jump to such a bulky NAS - but I feel I need to make a move to ensure my filling PC's get the important data secured in a better way as well as gaining more storage space.
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OneCD
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by OneCD »

camaxide wrote:Can that actually happen? I've never heard about a computer's power-supply break the disks inside it.. any psu-failure I've ever heard of only meant replacing the PSU and rock on.
Yes it can. I make no claim that this has ever happened to a QNAP device - just pointing to it as a common component that can fail and affect everything connected to it.
camaxide wrote:Everything on (2) would then also be stored on my computer(s) so as such the NAS (2) would be the actual backup.. and if either NAS or Computer dies, I can still replace either of them and not lose my files.
Ah, that's quite a different use-case. If the NAS will be a backup target for data kept on your PCs, then you won't need to make external backups as the NAS is the backup (although, multiple backups are no bad thing). Is that what you'll be using it for?

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camaxide
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by camaxide »

It's meant to do both, as I've filled most of my drives I need to load some data onto a new unit (can't fit more drives on my motherboards) as well as needing backup - since I've also depleted my dropbox 1TB with personal photos and videos.
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by P3R »

All data that have any value should exist in at least two independent systems (another NAS, a computer, a cloud storage or externally connected USB-disks are the most common backup destination alternatives).

RAID is used to achieve system reliability and easier storage management. RAID should never be thought of as a replacement for backup copies on other systems!
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
camaxide
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by camaxide »

Ok, so to sum up it won't really be important to run things RAID - as it's still unsafe file storage - but it will still make it easier to rebuild the setup with a spare disk.
And if I want both backup from the computer _and_ additional storage, I should likely split the NAS storage into two parts where one of them is for the extra storage space, and the second one is a pure backup (as long as the backed up files are not originally stored at the NAS but rather on another unit/PC) so that if the NAS unit should decide to go boom I still got all the backed up files intact.

For a storage backup.. is there still a good idea to run it in raid, so that I can easily rebuild if one drive goes? or am I then better off simply running it non-raid to keep all the possible storage space, as I anyway got all files on another unit as well?
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by dolbyman »

run it in raid6 ..if you want to sepperate storage ..devide up into different shares

just make sure all important data is backed up somwhere else...usb...other nas...cloud
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by Trexx »

camaxide wrote:
OneCD wrote: Everything on (2) would then also be stored on my computer(s) so as such the NAS (2) would be the actual backup.. and if either NAS or Computer dies, I can still replace either of them and not lose my files.
I guess in this last case I'd not really need to use raid to make it work, but I guess it's still better to run Raid to have that extra safety net, and to also be able to give (1) a second chance in case a drive says bye bye
I would still do external/offsite backups. You get a large power surge to you house (lightning strike/etc.) or a fire at your place then you lost both copies.

So my most critical data also copied to cloud, but I have external USB backups of it as well.
Paul

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P3R
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Re: Which raid with 8 disks?

Post by P3R »

camaxide wrote:Ok, so to sum up it won't really be important to run things RAID - as it's still unsafe file storage...
I wouldn't call it unsafe but no single storage, regardless of cost, can protect data by itself. Fire, flooding, theft, software bugs, malware are some things that can take out that single storage. Several of them can even destroy multiple storages at the same location so preferably at least one copy should be kept off-site
...but it will still make it easier to rebuild the setup with a spare disk.
Yes, and much easier to expand the storage in the future should you want that. Maybe you start out with 5 or 6 disks and add the remaining disks when you need them. Or even when the NAS is filled up with disks you could replace them with larger disks and expand the storage that way.
And if I want both backup from the computer _and_ additional storage, I should likely split the NAS storage into two parts where one of them is for the extra storage space, and the second one is a pure backup (as long as the backed up files are not originally stored at the NAS but rather on another unit/PC) so that if the NAS unit should decide to go boom I still got all the backed up files intact.
Keep it all in the same RAID volume but different types of data in different shared folders.
For a storage backup.. is there still a good idea to run it in raid, so that I can easily rebuild if one drive goes? or am I then better off simply running it non-raid to keep all the possible storage space, as I anyway got all files on another unit as well?
We're talking about about many days of data copying to get a large NAS back up following a lost volume and during that time you don't have a backup for your data so you're much more vulnerable.

A RAID 6 volume for all your data is my recommendation also.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
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