QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Interested in our products? Post your questions here. Let us answer before you buy.
Post Reply
User avatar
SFX Group
Getting the hang of things
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:09 am
Location: Cambridge, ON. Canada
Contact:

Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by SFX Group » Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:44 am

dolbyman wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 8:31 am
It can run either or ..not parrallel
I am refereeing to the fact they will not "end life" QTS over QuTS not that they run in parallel on the same system.
Many Thanks

P3R
Guru
Posts: 12636
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R » Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:45 am

SFX Group wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:10 am
Is that it, just ZFS?
Yes. :lol:

I'm pretty sure that most experienced storage administrators would consider a change to ZFS a huge and very important change.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

User avatar
SFX Group
Getting the hang of things
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:09 am
Location: Cambridge, ON. Canada
Contact:

Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by SFX Group » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:16 am

P3R wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:45 am
Yes. :lol:
To tidy this up:
- We are going for a NAS that runs QTS, as the RAID volumes can be extended by adding extra disks to the existing volume
- QuTS (ZFS) the RAID volume can not be extended by adding extra disks, they can be replaced for larger disks and then extended to that extra space, but extra disks can not be added to an existing RAID group
This is a huge limitation in our book, will will likely buy a large QuTS NAS then install QTS on it so we get the extra CPU use..
Many Thanks

User avatar
Cbrad01
Know my way around
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Cbrad01 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:25 am

SFX Group wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:16 am
P3R wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:45 am
Yes. :lol:
To tidy this up:
- We are going for a NAS that runs QTS, as the RAID volumes can be extended by adding extra disks to the existing volume
- QuTS (ZFS) the RAID volume can not be extended by adding extra disks, they can be replaced for larger disks and then extended to that extra space, but extra disks can not be added to an existing RAID group
This is a huge limitation in our book, will will likely buy a large QuTS NAS then install QTS on it so we get the extra CPU use..
I found the limitations of QuTS enough that I rebuilt with QTS, mostly around app support and shares.
You cannot share specific folders in QuTS only create new folder/share. Meaning you cannot manually set the share path.
Additionally there are several apps that will not run on QuTS such as surveillance station.

User avatar
SFX Group
Getting the hang of things
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:09 am
Location: Cambridge, ON. Canada
Contact:

Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by SFX Group » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:48 am

Cbrad01 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:25 am
I found the limitations of QuTS enough that I rebuilt with QTS, mostly around app support and shares.
You cannot share specific folders in QuTS only create new folder/share. Meaning you cannot manually set the share path.
Additionally there are several apps that will not run on QuTS such as surveillance station.
The surveillance ive seen, doesn't support QVR Pro either, although QVR Elite looks like it will get all the same toys as Pro and with slightly better coding.... but yes the App support is lower.

Wasnt aware about share issues, this is sounding more like a major screw up, as they are selling QuTS as the same as QTS except with ZFS, which clearly it isnt, what was it being unable to add disks to a RAID array voiume...

I wonder what the drive to these changes are?
Many Thanks

User avatar
Cbrad01
Know my way around
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Cbrad01 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:13 am

When I opened a support ticket, I was told that the share problem was related to the way ZFS worked. QVR Elite was the only "supported" surveillance app that is supported, and it is subscription based so it is going from eight free licenses to monthly fees.
I was able install QVR pro by downloading the app and manually loading it, but I was told it was not "officially" supported.

P3R
Guru
Posts: 12636
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R » Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:17 am

SFX Group wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:16 am
- QuTS (ZFS) the RAID volume can not be extended by adding extra disks, they can be replaced for larger disks and then extended to that extra space, but extra disks can not be added to an existing RAID group
Yes that's correct.

That will be a serious limitation to propbably a majority of home and small business users but to some home users and most professional storage admins in the slightly larger organizations the expansion limitations are probably much less of an issue. Because firstly they plan their storage growth differently and secondly they can still expand the storage by adding RAID groups.

For all the RAID 10 fans out there QuTS is actually more flexible than QTS. You can't expand a QTS RAID 10 group even by adding disk pairs. You can add an additional RAID 1 or RAID 10 RAID group to the pool but then it won't be as effectively used as when adding RAID groups in ZFS.

So as I said before, many storage admins will consider ZFS well worth the expansions limitations.

I'm sorry if laughing at your "...just ZFS" remark offended you. My intention wasn't to be mean, I was just genuinely very surprised by it and to me it could have been a joke as well.
This is a huge limitation in our book, will will likely buy a large QuTS NAS then install QTS on it so we get the extra CPU use..
Most will probably buy them to get ZFS but many will for different reasons (not only storage expansion) prefer QTS. That's what's great with those models, now you get to choose the OS you prefer.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

User avatar
SFX Group
Getting the hang of things
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:09 am
Location: Cambridge, ON. Canada
Contact:

Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by SFX Group » Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:53 am

Cbrad01 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:13 am
I was told that the share problem was related to the way ZFS worked.
Sounds more like an issue with the Storage Method they are using, as i can install Ubuntu with ZFS and have no limitations at all, sounds to me like QNAP and ZFS will take s while to settledown.
Many Thanks

User avatar
Cbrad01
Know my way around
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:17 pm

QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Cbrad01 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:20 am

It could be, I don’t know enough about ZFS. The way they explained it was that each share is a new volume. I have several shares that are folders within folders. By making shares within shares I create where some users have access to all files in a share where others have access to shared folders under the parent share. Creating multiple shares, splitting up the files and then forcing some users to map more share drives is crazy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
Moogle Stiltzkin
Ask me anything
Posts: 9924
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:21 am
Location: Around the world....
Contact:

Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:13 am

SFX Group wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:10 am
P3R wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:37 pm
SFX Group wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:54 pm
So if it uses more RAM and CPU whats the benefit?
ZFS.

It's a more resilient and safe file system with additional features (and limitations) built in.
Is that it, just ZFS?
yes but.... zfs is important to some folks. this youtuber explains why
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsFDp-W1Ks0


zfs on nas does have a limitation where you can't simply add in a new hdd and expand an existing raid to include. instead you are forced to create that raid from scratch if you wish to include that new hdd.

but with ext4 aka qts, you can expand hdd without that fuss.

ultimately i prefer zfs is offered a choice. more so if the nas is a x73A model which seems to be great for quts hero
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obxtGFnqO-E
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D
[^] QNAP TS-228
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

Deejay2k2
First post
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:58 pm

Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Deejay2k2 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:22 pm

Dear qnap community,

I have a new TS-886 installed and all cages filled with drives. My setup is:
2 x 1TB m2 SSDs as cache
2 x 1TB 2.5 inch SSDs for the system and its default shares
6 x 4TB as RAID6 for data/backups

Todays I backed up 5 computers with acronis true image to this NAS and its shared folder on the datapool2 /backup. I can see in the overview that there is a plenty of space used from this backups but in the filestation and via ssh there are no files/folders present/visible from this backups.

Anyone has a clue what the problem is and how can I fix it?

Post Reply

Return to “Presales”