QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

P3R wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:36 am
Moogle Stiltzkin wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:02 am so i guess you won't be using quts hero i take it?
Why do you guess that?

I manage ZFS systems on an almost daily basis and I have the hardware to run it, so why wouldn't I want to use it? I certainly want to at least test it.
because of your messaging i thought you didn't want to use it because of the limitations 8) stone age as you put it, your own words.

P3R wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:36 am
Different from the marketing message though, I want users to also be aware of the limitations and disadvantages in advance so that they can make an informed decision. I also haven't noticed the stellar performance advantage marketing tell us about. I think that a lot of users with smaller NASes would be better off sticking to QTS. At least for a while until the early adopters have taken the hit and the real hardware requirements are common knowledge. I can't imagine that anybody with 4 GB RAM will be a happy user.
i'm sorta agreed on this... but even for normal user, just using the auto heal feature, and not using more advance features (dedupe), is still advantageous. but like you said, if they can't cope with the limitations, then they may be better off with the standard ext4 qts firmware instead :(

i'm not sure that these limitations are clearly indicated though on this page
Notes
-QuTS hero requires a NAS with at least 4GB memory.
-Inline Data Deduplication requires a NAS with at least 8GB memory (at least 32GB memory is recommended for optimal performance).
-QuTS hero is not supported by dual-controller NAS systems.
-As QTS and QuTS hero use different file systems, the NAS system must be re-initialized before switching between QTS and QuTS hero. Users must back up their data and system settings beforehand.
https://www.qnap.com/quts-hero/en/

Image


it's missing mention of whether it would allow creation a single static volume from the documentation :S I'm pretty certain this was mentioned somewhere at some point (probly in one of the youtube in the sliders, but i can't recall which one exactly). they should add that to the list of caveats on the quts hero page.
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R »

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:01 am because of your messaging i thought you didn't want to use it because of the limitations 8) stone age as you put it, your own words.
I meant that static volumes belong to the stone age.

I haven't used them since the day I could use storage pools and I tried to make a joke questioning why anybody would still want to use static volumes any more when you have an option.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

P3R wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:40 am I meant that static volumes belong to the stone age.
i agree with you on that. but my assumption was, because of that one caveat, you meant you weren't going to touch qts hero which is why i misunderstood what you meant by that. my mistake :ashamed:

atm i am using a single static volume ssd. but i'm not sure that is going to be possible with quts hero (doesn't sound like it). But something something like raid1 using 2 ssds would work? but that require me purchasing an extra ssd just to do that :S whereas i was perfectly having that single static volume ssd on qts.

so will see :) ....

anyone know when we can purchase qts hero :( ? i sent helpdesk a message, waiting for a reply.
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Jazz59 »

Hi Moogle,

The QuTS hero license program will be available from the second quarter of 2020. According to the Qnap site.

I look forward to it and I hope in passing that it will solve the RR problems that cause the Samsung 970 Evo with my TVS-472XT.

Jazz59 8)
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by OneCD »

Jazz59 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 11:39 amThe QuTS hero license program will be available from the second quarter of 2020. According to the Qnap site.
And it won’t be the first-half of the second-quarter. ;)

ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

thx jazz
January, February, and March (Q1)
April, May, and June (Q2)
July, August, and September (Q3)
October, November, and December (Q4)
So next month :'

QTS 4.4.2.1273 build 20200413

Enhancements

QTS
Users can now switch between QTS and QTS hero on the QTS hero NAS.
https://www.qnap.com/en/release-notes/q ... 3/20200413


where to buy once it's released
https://software.qnap.com
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[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R »

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 8:53 am atm i am using a single static volume ssd. but i'm not sure that is going to be possible with quts hero (doesn't sound like it). But something something like raid1 using 2 ssds would work?
Now it sound like you're confusing static volume with single disk QTS. They're separate things. I thought your question was about having a static volumes.

You can have single HDD/SSD in both QTS and with ZFS. It's usually not recommended, but possible.

In QTS a static volume is an alternative to using storage pools, which is placed upon a RAID group or a single disk.

In QuTS you need a separate boot volume. I don't remember the exact requirements but I think that a RAID 1 of SSDs would be the best for that. It's probably optional but in addition to that you may want to use SSDs for caching. As that would include write caching, at least RAID 1 is strongly recommended or hopefully even a requirement.

I intend to have 2 pairs of SSDs for the above usage.
So next month...
And as we know that Qnap have never been late with any release, you'd better get ready now... :lol:
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

P3R wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 3:15 pm Now it sound like you're confusing static volume with single disk QTS. They're separate things. I thought your question was about having a static volumes.

You can have single HDD/SSD in both QTS and with ZFS. It's usually not recommended, but possible.

In QTS a static volume is an alternative to using storage pools, which is placed upon a RAID group or a single disk.

In QuTS you need a separate boot volume. I don't remember the exact requirements but I think that a RAID 1 of SSDs would be the best for that. It's probably optional but in addition to that you may want to use SSDs for caching. As that would include write caching, at least RAID 1 is strongly recommended or hopefully even a requirement.

I intend to have 2 pairs of SSDs for the above usage.
So next month...
And as we know that Qnap have never been late with any release, you'd better get ready now... :lol:
i was referring to this.
Image

this was the only option i got for setting up a single SSD/HDD in qts storage manager for a standalone ssd/hdd afaik :S
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[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by qrusher »

sad but no
you need reinit hdd for only zfs usage
no mix ext4 zfs pool storage possible
they use different kernel compilated cores

ithnk
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Updates are compromise between old bug patches and new bugs introduced. 8)
do you backup..then kill it with fire
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R »

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 3:34 pm this was the only option i got for setting up a single SSD/HDD in qts storage manager for a standalone ssd/hdd afaik
Okay, as I don't use static volumes I wasn't aware that the underlying disk configuration was included in the description but it's logical as they're integrated.

I don't know as I have never had a reason to try it but can't you create a storage pool on a single disk?

Anyway, in ZFS a disk is a vdev so I don't see why it should be a problem to create a pool (volume) on it if you wanted to.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by dolbyman »

I wonder if this was a gaffe or a slip (from reddit)
Screenshot_2020-05-20 r qnap - QuTS Hero Jibber Jabber.png
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

is he refering to the recent pop up due to the latest 4.4.2 build? i looked at mine but i didn't spot any mention of qutshero :/

i'm not saying he is lying, i just did not see it for myself.

got these links bookmarked to check
this is the one it will most likely appear on first :'

Code: Select all

https://software.qnap.com
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by dolbyman »

was talking about qnapdaniels response on the bottom....current owners will not be able to upgrade qts to qtshero

*edit* .. now reddit shows more responses..qnapdaniel now clarified that upgrades for a fee will be done later

it sounded very final though in his first response
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by QNAPDanielFL »

We now have some NAS that come with QuTS Hero included. Those don't charge extra for QuTS Hero because it is already included.

In the future you should be able to buy a license for most current NAS to switch your current NAS to QuTS Hero.

I do expect a charge for this but it should only be a 1-time fee.
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Trexx »

QNAPDanielFL wrote: Fri May 22, 2020 3:22 am We now have some NAS that come with QuTS Hero included. Those don't charge extra for QuTS Hero because it is already included.

In the future you should be able to buy a license for most current NAS to switch your current NAS to QuTS Hero.

I do expect a charge for this but it should only be a 1-time fee.
Hi Daniel,

Will that license be transferable. Someone buys ZFS for their "backup" NAS, and finds that it isn't beefy enough to truly benefit from ZFS and wants to move that license to their primary NAS. Will that be possible (similar to some existing QNAP licenses where it is tied to active licenses used vs. specific HW device)?
Paul

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