TVS-882 and QM2 card

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gregoinc
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby gregoinc » Thu May 18, 2017 6:05 pm

The QM2-2P is installed in the TS-563 with a bit of fiddling about. Was a snug fit, but got there in the end. Here's some photos...

Samsung M.2 loaded...
Image

Thermal paste loaded, ready for heat sink...
Image

All finished and ready to load...
Image

The QM2 loaded in the TS-563...
Image

I will play with QM2 and share some stats. Looking at RAID 1 as the starting point, so will see how that goes.

tecrp7
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby tecrp7 » Thu May 18, 2017 11:07 pm

rafale wrote:
tecrp7 wrote:Here is a screen cap of Crystal Mark: I was using a different program before and didn't realize it was MB and not mb. So if I time those number by 8 bits I would get over 4000mb correct? Still a little slower than I would think with NVME's in RAID 0. However, like I said, I am not a guru in NAS/storage so please correct me if I am wrong!

CrystalMarkNVME.PNG


No these are pretty catastrophic. I am a bit shocked that the card only supports Gen2 PCI-E. All the SSDs are Gen3 these days.
A single 950 Pro gets 2200/1500 in seq on my NUC:

CrystalDiskMark 5.2.1 x64 (C) 2007-2017 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : http://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 2257.613 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 1464.891 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 508.758 MB/s [124208.5 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 355.223 MB/s [ 86724.4 IOPS]
Sequential Read (T= 1) : 1694.931 MB/s
Sequential Write (T= 1) : 1470.745 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 54.652 MB/s [ 13342.8 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 188.831 MB/s [ 46101.3 IOPS]

Test : 1024 MiB [C: 15.3% (72.7/476.0 GiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2017/05/17 13:50:44
OS : Windows 10 Professional [10.0 Build 15063] (x64)


Thanks. That is what I thought after watching a few videos of people using the 960's in RAID 0. I am also running it in RAID 0 to have the combined size compared to RAID 1. I don't feel I need redundancy with what I am using these drives for. I will try and do some troubleshooting with the RAID to see if I can get better speeds. I should be at least getting 1gb.
TVS-882
6 - 6TB Western Digital Red Pro's RAID 6
2 - Samsung 850 EVO's RAID 1 - Cache
2 - Samsung 850 PRO's RAID 1 - OS/Apps
2 - Samsung 960 PRO's RAID 0 - VM's (Expansion Card)
Kingston Technology HyperX FURY 32 GB Kit + Stock 8 GB DDR4
Dual M.2 22110/2280 PCIe SSD expansion card

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rafale
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby rafale » Fri May 19, 2017 2:16 am

@tecrp7 You are very likely bottlenecked by the absurd card. It is likely designed with Gen2 for broader compatibility but as a result is obsolete performance wise.
The knowing that it is a 4 lane Gen 2 card, Even a single SSD would saturate it. Why did QNAP offer 2 slots and add a chip to manage switching between them?
A $10 card offering a single Gen3 direct connection with no chip would be faster.
TVS 871, i7 4785T, intel X520DA dual 10GBe Card, 16GB, 8 x 3TB WD Red in RAID 6.
TVS 1282, i7 6700K, Emulex OCE11102 dual 10GBe Card, 64GB, Noctua NH-L12 w/GT-15. 2x 850 EVO 500GB M.2. 4x WD Red 8TB, 4x WD Purple 4TB

tecrp7
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby tecrp7 » Fri May 19, 2017 2:36 am

rafale wrote:@tecrp7 You are very likely bottlenecked by the absurd card. It is likely designed with Gen2 for broader compatibility but as a result is obsolete performance wise.
The knowing that it is a 4 lane Gen 2 card, Even a single SSD would saturate it. Why did QNAP offer 2 slots and add a chip to manage switching between them?
A $10 card offering a single Gen3 direct connection with no chip would be faster.


You're right. I have tried many configuration with the system and same result. I have thought about buying a PCIe Gen 3 card from Amazon and slapping the 960 in it and seeing if it works. My fear is that the NAS won't recognize the card because it wasn't made by QNAP.
TVS-882
6 - 6TB Western Digital Red Pro's RAID 6
2 - Samsung 850 EVO's RAID 1 - Cache
2 - Samsung 850 PRO's RAID 1 - OS/Apps
2 - Samsung 960 PRO's RAID 0 - VM's (Expansion Card)
Kingston Technology HyperX FURY 32 GB Kit + Stock 8 GB DDR4
Dual M.2 22110/2280 PCIe SSD expansion card

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rafale
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby rafale » Fri May 19, 2017 4:35 am

tecrp7 wrote:
rafale wrote:@tecrp7 You are very likely bottlenecked by the absurd card. It is likely designed with Gen2 for broader compatibility but as a result is obsolete performance wise.
The knowing that it is a 4 lane Gen 2 card, Even a single SSD would saturate it. Why did QNAP offer 2 slots and add a chip to manage switching between them?
A $10 card offering a single Gen3 direct connection with no chip would be faster.


You're right. I have tried many configuration with the system and same result. I have thought about buying a PCIe Gen 3 card from Amazon and slapping the 960 in it and seeing if it works. My fear is that the NAS won't recognize the card because it wasn't made by QNAP.


Totally valid concern. The cheap cards are just a PCB with no chip on it. It basically connects your SSD directly to the PCI-E port on the motherboard which then makes it just like the second M.2 slot on our board. It then comes down to the QNAP BIOS to support the NVME SSD which I don't think is the case right now. Someone here managed to make an XP941 work (PCI-E Gen2 AHCI SSD). I tried an AHCI SM951 (PCI-E Gen3 AHCI). The BIOS seems to see the drive but QNAP QTS doesn't, so it is now an OS/Driver problem.
TVS 871, i7 4785T, intel X520DA dual 10GBe Card, 16GB, 8 x 3TB WD Red in RAID 6.
TVS 1282, i7 6700K, Emulex OCE11102 dual 10GBe Card, 64GB, Noctua NH-L12 w/GT-15. 2x 850 EVO 500GB M.2. 4x WD Red 8TB, 4x WD Purple 4TB

gregoinc
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby gregoinc » Fri May 19, 2017 5:47 am

rafale wrote:
tecrp7 wrote:
rafale wrote:@tecrp7 You are very likely bottlenecked by the absurd card. It is likely designed with Gen2 for broader compatibility but as a result is obsolete performance wise.
The knowing that it is a 4 lane Gen 2 card, Even a single SSD would saturate it. Why did QNAP offer 2 slots and add a chip to manage switching between them?
A $10 card offering a single Gen3 direct connection with no chip would be faster.


You're right. I have tried many configuration with the system and same result. I have thought about buying a PCIe Gen 3 card from Amazon and slapping the 960 in it and seeing if it works. My fear is that the NAS won't recognize the card because it wasn't made by QNAP.


Totally valid concern. The cheap cards are just a PCB with no chip on it. It basically connects your SSD directly to the PCI-E port on the motherboard which then makes it just like the second M.2 slot on our board. It then comes down to the QNAP BIOS to support the NVME SSD which I don't think is the case right now. Someone here managed to make an XP941 work (PCI-E Gen2 AHCI SSD). I tried an AHCI SM951 (PCI-E Gen3 AHCI). The BIOS seems to see the drive but QNAP QTS doesn't, so it is now an OS/Driver problem.


Prior to purchasing the QM2 card I did a lot of research. My research identified what you have outlined above, but also some other interesting info. As you've pointed out the cheap cards on eBay and Amazon don't offer much in the way of conversion between the PCIE M.2 SSD drives and the PCIE slot in the QNAP, and cards on eBay similar to the QM2 offering 2 x M.2 cards with full PCIE functionality are extremely rare and tend to be much more expensive than the 'cheap' cards that tend not to offer that functionality.

There are heaps of cards offering M.2 SATA to PCIE, but there's really no performance value in throttling the PCIE bus speed to SATA. I purchased a cheap eBay card that purported to offer 2 x PCIE M.2 to PCIE x4, but it didn't work in my TS-563 or my PC for that matter (and the card supplier specifically said the card didn't require drivers).

My requirements were limited in that my TS-563 only has a single PCIE x4 slot, so in the end it came down to what would be the most reliable way to get additional SSD storage that could offer RAID 1, and after much research I went with the QM2-2P. Sure I could have gone with the QM2 SATA version, but the QNAP SATA & PCIE cards are comparably priced so I took a took a gamble and purchased the QM2 PCIE which works... but not as good performance as we'd hoped.

End of the day... yes you can buy cheap cards, but if you want dual PCIE M.2 SSD drives it might take a few purchases to find a card that works.

gregoinc
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby gregoinc » Fri May 19, 2017 6:03 am

tecrp7 wrote:
rafale wrote:
tecrp7 wrote:Here is a screen cap of Crystal Mark: I was using a different program before and didn't realize it was MB and not mb. So if I time those number by 8 bits I would get over 4000mb correct? Still a little slower than I would think with NVME's in RAID 0. However, like I said, I am not a guru in NAS/storage so please correct me if I am wrong!

CrystalMarkNVME.PNG


No these are pretty catastrophic. I am a bit shocked that the card only supports Gen2 PCI-E. All the SSDs are Gen3 these days.
A single 950 Pro gets 2200/1500 in seq on my NUC:

CrystalDiskMark 5.2.1 x64 (C) 2007-2017 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : http://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 bytes/s [SATA/600 = 600,000,000 bytes/s]
* KB = 1000 bytes, KiB = 1024 bytes

Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 2257.613 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 1464.891 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 508.758 MB/s [124208.5 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 355.223 MB/s [ 86724.4 IOPS]
Sequential Read (T= 1) : 1694.931 MB/s
Sequential Write (T= 1) : 1470.745 MB/s
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 54.652 MB/s [ 13342.8 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 188.831 MB/s [ 46101.3 IOPS]

Test : 1024 MiB [C: 15.3% (72.7/476.0 GiB)] (x5) [Interval=5 sec]
Date : 2017/05/17 13:50:44
OS : Windows 10 Professional [10.0 Build 15063] (x64)


Thanks. That is what I thought after watching a few videos of people using the 960's in RAID 0. I am also running it in RAID 0 to have the combined size compared to RAID 1. I don't feel I need redundancy with what I am using these drives for. I will try and do some troubleshooting with the RAID to see if I can get better speeds. I should be at least getting 1gb.


With the testing above, how do you have it configured i.e. where is CrystalDiskMark running and how is it accessing the QM2 storage? Reason I ask, to get a true indication of the performance throughput, wouldn't it be better to run a benchmarking tool directly on the QNAP QTS operating system. Running a performance test on the native QTS OS (which is basically Linux) you could get comparable performance statistics between the storage on the QM2 card and other storage in the NAS. I ran CrystalDiskMark on a Win10 VM running on the storage on the QM2 and the results were varied, so I believe there are too many factors that come to play which could make CrystalDiskMark unreliable as a benchmark.

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rafale
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby rafale » Fri May 19, 2017 7:57 am

@gregoinc

I understand your use case. For the 563, I haven't looked into it but it is possible that it only supports Gen2 PCI-E anyway so it would just be an extra RAID/PCI-E splitter.
For those of us with a Gen3 PCI-E and already have M.2 slots on the MB, this card is a major downgrade to either an el cheapo card supporting only one drive or the onboard slot.
That QM2 card apparently seems to comes with an NVME driver which QTS does not have for the x82 MB which only supports AHCI. How strange...
TVS 871, i7 4785T, intel X520DA dual 10GBe Card, 16GB, 8 x 3TB WD Red in RAID 6.
TVS 1282, i7 6700K, Emulex OCE11102 dual 10GBe Card, 64GB, Noctua NH-L12 w/GT-15. 2x 850 EVO 500GB M.2. 4x WD Red 8TB, 4x WD Purple 4TB

gregoinc
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby gregoinc » Fri May 19, 2017 8:28 am

rafale wrote:@gregoinc

I understand your use case. For the 563, I haven't looked into it but it is possible that it only supports Gen2 PCI-E anyway so it would just be an extra RAID/PCI-E splitter.
For those of us with a Gen3 PCI-E and already have M.2 slots on the MB, this card is a major downgrade to either an el cheapo card supporting only one drive or the onboard slot.
That QM2 card apparently seems to comes with an NVME driver which QTS does not have for the x82 MB which only supports AHCI. How strange...


Did I mention I also own a TVS-882... so I get the conundrum with the onboard M.2 slots versus PCIE via the expansion slots. However the point I was also making was around how the performance was being benchmarked. Irrespective of what M.2 to PCIE card is used, it is probably a good idea to have level playing field on measuring performance. In the Linux world I've used IOmeter and HDparms to benchmark performance, but not sure if something similar is available on the QNAP?

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rafale
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby rafale » Fri May 19, 2017 3:10 pm

I have seen people run drive benchmarks within VM with linux or windows but otherwise, I indeed don't know of any benchmark qpkg...
TVS 871, i7 4785T, intel X520DA dual 10GBe Card, 16GB, 8 x 3TB WD Red in RAID 6.
TVS 1282, i7 6700K, Emulex OCE11102 dual 10GBe Card, 64GB, Noctua NH-L12 w/GT-15. 2x 850 EVO 500GB M.2. 4x WD Red 8TB, 4x WD Purple 4TB

gregoinc
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby gregoinc » Fri May 19, 2017 5:42 pm

rafale wrote:I have seen people run drive benchmarks within VM with linux or windows but otherwise, I indeed don't know of any benchmark qpkg...


I loaded the QNAP Diagnostic Tool and obtained the following performance statistics from my TS-563 using the File System Analyser...

2 x M.2 PCIE SSD on QM2-2P card in RAID 1
Test volume : /share/CACHEDEV2_DATA
Block device : /dev/mapper/cachedev2
Left space : 380584 MB
Test start : Fri May 19 19:33:04 EST 2017
Test finish : Fri May 19 19:33:17 EST 2017
Write 2GB performance : 453.61 MB/s
Read 2GB performance : 925.70 MB/s
Use extents : 6

5 x WD RED 3TB Drives in RAID 5
Test volume : /share/CACHEDEV1_DATA
Block device : /dev/mapper/cachedev1
Left space : 3244525 MB
Test start : Fri May 19 19:36:27 EST 2017
Test finish : Fri May 19 19:39:29 EST 2017
Write 2GB performance : 276.54 MB/s
Read 2GB performance : 200.49 MB/s
Use extents : 23

Interesting stats... would appreciate some other stats from other QNAP units using the QM2 card.

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Don
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby Don » Sat May 20, 2017 2:16 am

Question. With one M.2 module can you do read/write cache or read only? Do you need two modules running in RAID 1 to do read/write?
Read the Online Manuals and use the forum search feature (upper right hand corner) before posting.

It is a recommended to use RAID and have external backups. RAID will protect you from disk failure, keep your system running, and data accessible while the disk is replaced and the RAID rebuilt. Backups will allow you to recover data that is lost or corrupted, or from catastrophic system failure. One does not replace the other.

Bugs and feature requests need to be submitted to QNAP via their Helpdesk or Helpdesk app.

NAS: TVS-882BR | F/W: 4.3.3.0361 | 40GB | 2 x M.2 SATA RAID 1 (System) | 2 x M.2 NMVe RAID 1 (Cache) | 3 x 4TB HDD RAID 5 (Data) | 1 x Blu-ray
NAS: TVS-663 | F/W: 4.3.3.0361 | 16GB | 2 x M.2 NMVe QM2 RAID 1 (Cache) | 3 x 4TB RAID 5
N/W: Netgear NightHawk R7800 router | SMC gigabit switch

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jds580s
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby jds580s » Sat May 20, 2017 3:07 am

You can put a Read/Write cache on a single M.2 module. However, I think many of us would discourage doing that because when the drive fails during a write, you will lose all the data that the cache had not already successfully offloaded onto other drives even though your PC or whatever device was sending the data will look as though all that previous data was successfully written.

Model: TVS-1282
Firmware: QTS 4.3.3


Model: TS-459 Pro
Firmware: QTS 4.1.2
OS: Win10 Pro English
RAID 6: 2x HGST HDN724030ALE640 3TB, x2 Seagate ST3000VN000 3TB
External: USB Drive 3TB, eSATA Drive 2TB
Services: File Station, Backup Station (Rsync, External Drive), Surveillance Station 2, FTP
QPKG: CrashPlan, Plex Media Server, JRE, Optware IPKG
Network: 1 Gbps, MTU 1500

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Don
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby Don » Sat May 20, 2017 3:19 am

Good point. Thanks.
Read the Online Manuals and use the forum search feature (upper right hand corner) before posting.

It is a recommended to use RAID and have external backups. RAID will protect you from disk failure, keep your system running, and data accessible while the disk is replaced and the RAID rebuilt. Backups will allow you to recover data that is lost or corrupted, or from catastrophic system failure. One does not replace the other.

Bugs and feature requests need to be submitted to QNAP via their Helpdesk or Helpdesk app.

NAS: TVS-882BR | F/W: 4.3.3.0361 | 40GB | 2 x M.2 SATA RAID 1 (System) | 2 x M.2 NMVe RAID 1 (Cache) | 3 x 4TB HDD RAID 5 (Data) | 1 x Blu-ray
NAS: TVS-663 | F/W: 4.3.3.0361 | 16GB | 2 x M.2 NMVe QM2 RAID 1 (Cache) | 3 x 4TB RAID 5
N/W: Netgear NightHawk R7800 router | SMC gigabit switch

rsysw
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby rsysw » Mon May 22, 2017 3:31 pm

Hello,

Can anyone help to advise GPGPU compatible with TVS-882? I neeed something as powerfull as RADEON RX 480 8GB. Unfortunately PowerColor AXRX 480 8GBD5-M3DH (suggested on the list https://www.qnap.com/en/compatibility/?model=235&category=25 ) is no longer available on sales on polish market.

Thx


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