TVS-882 and QM2 card

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colindbrookes
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby colindbrookes » Tue May 30, 2017 4:13 am

Hi all,
Although not using a TVS-882 - I have a TVS-871, I have been successfully using a generic PCIe NGFF M.2 card (I think £6 on ebay) together with a Samsung 960 EVO 512GB M.2 SSD for cache purposes.
The generic PCIe card is in the PCIe 3 slot X 4 and configured as a single drive for both read and write caching.
The drive shows as normal in storage manager.
The following results were obtained using the Qnap diagnostic tool.
Test volume : /share/CACHEDEV2_DATA
Block device : /dev/mapper/cachedev2
Left space : 10070989 MB
Test start : Mon May 29 21:08:15 BST 2017
Test finish : Mon May 29 21:09:32 BST 2017
Write 2GB performance : 1192.52 MB/s
Read 2GB performance : 1476.66 MB/s
Use extents : 4
There is more information and screenshots if you search TVS-x71 upgrade options.
Regards - Colin

gregoinc
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: RE: Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby gregoinc » Tue May 30, 2017 5:43 am

colindbrookes wrote:Hi all,
Although not using a TVS-882 - I have a TVS-871, I have been successfully using a generic PCIe NGFF M.2 card (I think £6 on ebay) together with a Samsung 960 EVO 512GB M.2 SSD for cache purposes.
The generic PCIe card is in the PCIe 3 slot X 4 and configured as a single drive for both read and write caching.
The drive shows as normal in storage manager.
The following results were obtained using the Qnap diagnostic tool.
Test volume : /share/CACHEDEV2_DATA
Block device : /dev/mapper/cachedev2
Left space : 10070989 MB
Test start : Mon May 29 21:08:15 BST 2017
Test finish : Mon May 29 21:09:32 BST 2017
Write 2GB performance : 1192.52 MB/s
Read 2GB performance : 1476.66 MB/s
Use extents : 4
There is more information and screenshots if you search TVS-x71 upgrade options.
Regards - Colin

Interesting info, thanks for sharing. Any photos of the setup or card itself?

Just to confirm, you are using a single 960 M.2 for read and write cache? If confirmed, a bit risky for write cache.

ssuper2k
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby ssuper2k » Tue May 30, 2017 3:19 pm

colindbrookes wrote:Hi all,
Although not using a TVS-882 - I have a TVS-871, I have been successfully using a generic PCIe NGFF M.2 card (I think £6 on ebay) together with a Samsung 960 EVO 512GB M.2 SSD for cache purposes.
The generic PCIe card is in the PCIe 3 slot X 4 and configured as a single drive for both read and write caching.
The drive shows as normal in storage manager.
The following results were obtained using the Qnap diagnostic tool.
Test volume : /share/CACHEDEV2_DATA
Block device : /dev/mapper/cachedev2
Left space : 10070989 MB
Test start : Mon May 29 21:08:15 BST 2017
Test finish : Mon May 29 21:09:32 BST 2017
Write 2GB performance : 1192.52 MB/s
Read 2GB performance : 1476.66 MB/s
Use extents : 4
There is more information and screenshots if you search TVS-x71 upgrade options.
Regards - Colin

Which test is this?

I can only find the 'hdd analyzer'

Code: Select all

Name:  Disk 1
Path:  /dev/sda
Performance:   169.25 MB/sec
Name:  Disk 2
Path:  /dev/sdb
Performance:   170.03 MB/sec
Name:  Disk 3
Path:  /dev/sdc
Performance:   159.20 MB/sec
Name:  Disk 4
Path:  /dev/sdd
Performance:   164.37 MB/sec
Name:  Disk 5
Path:  /dev/sde
Performance:   153.94 MB/sec
Name:  Disk 6
Path:  /dev/sdf
Performance:   159.59 MB/sec
Name:  Internal cache 1
Path:  /dev/nvme0n1
Performance:   1547.07 MB/sec

Qnap 671
Sdd is a 950pro 512MB in a generic pcie card

bokr71
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby bokr71 » Wed May 31, 2017 10:10 am

Qts.:

In a TVS-882T, I will have the two cards (the 10G network card and the Thunderbolt card) preinstalled, but as I do not need the 10G network card, I was thinking of replacing that with the QM2-2P card. Will that work?

Also, if I install a QM2-2P with 2 x Samsung 960 Pros in a TVS-882T, will that be faster for SSD caching than using 2 x Samsung 850 EVOs in the M.2 slots?
IT Director, as well as Semi-professional photographer. MacHead and many year user of NAS.

Computers: nMP 3.5GHz 6C/64GB/1TB/D700 - ACD & ATD - Echo Express 1TB Accelsior/2x500GB Sonnet Tempo - MBP 13" i7/16GB/512GB - MBA 13" i7/8GB/250GB - MMI i5/8GB/500GB - 2 x TC 3TB - 128GB iPhone 6s - 64GB iPad Mini 2 - 128GB iPad Pro - 42mm Apple Watch

NASes: ReadyNAS Pioneer Pro 6x3TB - ReadyNAS Ultra2 2x4TB - Possibly QNAP TVS-882T 6x10TB HDDs, 2x1TB SSDs, 2x256GB M.2 SSDs

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jds580s
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby jds580s » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:46 am

I had been planning on going with a QM2-2P card, but decided to try using two generic PCIe NVMe adapter cards with a pair of Samsung 960 EVO 500GB drives

Results for RAID 0 (just for testing)

Using QNAP Diagnostic Tool > File System Analyser

Code: Select all

Write Performace: 1707.42MB/s
Read Performace: 3544.22MB/s


Using hdparm -t

Code: Select all

Timing buffered disk reads: 16308 MB in 3.00 seconds = 5435.71 MB/sec


I'm not sure why there is a discrepancy between the two read results, but they were fairly consistent over multiple tests.

Given the performance difference between the QM2 card on PCIe Gen 2 and the generic Gen 3 cards, I think I will pass on the QM2 card.

Model: TVS-1282
Firmware: QTS 4.3.3


Model: TS-459 Pro
Firmware: QTS 4.1.2
OS: Win10 Pro English
RAID 6: 2x HGST HDN724030ALE640 3TB, x2 Seagate ST3000VN000 3TB
External: USB Drive 3TB, eSATA Drive 2TB
Services: File Station, Backup Station (Rsync, External Drive), Surveillance Station 2, FTP
QPKG: CrashPlan, Plex Media Server, JRE, Optware IPKG
Network: 1 Gbps, MTU 1500

gregoinc
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: RE: Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby gregoinc » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:36 am

jds580s wrote:I had been planning on going with a QM2-2P card, but decided to try using two generic PCIe NVMe adapter cards with a pair of Samsung 960 EVO 500GB drives

Results for RAID 0 (just for testing)

Using QNAP Diagnostic Tool > File System Analyser

Code: Select all

Write Performace: 1707.42MB/s
Read Performace: 3544.22MB/s


Using hdparm -t

Code: Select all

Timing buffered disk reads: 16308 MB in 3.00 seconds = 5435.71 MB/sec


I'm not sure why there is a discrepancy between the two read results, but they were fairly consistent over multiple tests.

Given the performance difference between the QM2 card on PCIe Gen 2 and the generic Gen 3 cards, I think I will pass on the QM2 card.

Thanks for sharing. Would be very much appreciated if you could share details of the generic cards you've trialled.


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jds580s
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Re: RE: Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby jds580s » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:02 am

gregoinc wrote:Thanks for sharing. Would be very much appreciated if you could share details of the generic cards you've trialled.

Of course.

I am using two of this specific card
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01FF ... UTF8&psc=1

However, I think any generic should work since those types of cards don't really have any chips or logic on them. I was hoping to find one with active cooling, but didn't see any that came with half height brackets.
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Last edited by jds580s on Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Model: TVS-1282
Firmware: QTS 4.3.3


Model: TS-459 Pro
Firmware: QTS 4.1.2
OS: Win10 Pro English
RAID 6: 2x HGST HDN724030ALE640 3TB, x2 Seagate ST3000VN000 3TB
External: USB Drive 3TB, eSATA Drive 2TB
Services: File Station, Backup Station (Rsync, External Drive), Surveillance Station 2, FTP
QPKG: CrashPlan, Plex Media Server, JRE, Optware IPKG
Network: 1 Gbps, MTU 1500

gregoinc
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Re: RE: Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby gregoinc » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:12 am

jds580s wrote:
gregoinc wrote:Thanks for sharing. Would be very much appreciated if you could share details of the generic cards you've trialled.

Of course.

I am using two of this specific card
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01FF ... UTF8&psc=1

However, I think any generic should work since those types of cards don't really have any chips or logic on them. I was hoping to find one with active cooling, but didn't see any that came with half height brackets.


Thanks for that, I wonder if having two separate PCIE cards accounts for the higher performance? Because I have a TVS-882 and TS-563 the challenge for me was to find a single card that was PCIE x4 and would support 2 x M.2 NVMe SSD drives. That was primarily due to the TS-563 only having a single PCIE x4 slot.

I tried to find a 'generic' card similar to the one you found on Amazon, but I could never find a card that supported the 2 x M.2 NVMe SSD drives. Most 2 slot generic cards will support 1 x NVMe and 1 x SATA M.2 on the one card, but as I said I never found one that supported 2 x M.2 NVMe drives.

Thanks again for sharing.

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jds580s
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Re: RE: Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby jds580s » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:31 am

gregoinc wrote:Thanks for that, I wonder if having two separate PCIE cards accounts for the higher performance? Because I have a TVS-882 and TS-563 the challenge for me was to find a single card that was PCIE x4 and would support 2 x M.2 NVMe SSD drives. That was primarily due to the TS-563 only having a single PCIE x4 slot.

I tried to find a 'generic' card similar to the one you found on Amazon, but I could never find a card that supported the 2 x M.2 NVMe SSD drives. Most 2 slot generic cards will support 1 x NVMe and 1 x SATA M.2 on the one card, but as I said I never found one that supported 2 x M.2 NVMe drives.

Thanks again for sharing.

There are not many options for two NVMe drives on one PCIe card at the moment, but there are a few. Here are some I've seen online:
http://amfeltec.com/squid-pci-express-c ... ?view=list
http://amfeltec.com/products/pci-expres ... sd-modules
http://www.ioi.com.tw/products/prodcat_ ... ostID=2067
http://amfeltec.com/products/pci-expres ... e-modules/
http://barefeats.com/hard210.html
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/workstations/z ... ve-g3.html

There are a number of things that would caution me away from using them in a QNAP NAS.
Some are PCIe 8x or 16x and may not work with your QNAP unless you have one of those slots available
Some are not low profile if you need that size bracket
Some orient the drives sticking up from the PCIe connector and may not fit in your NAS's case
Most cards with multiple drives need some kind smarts on board to direct traffic to the appropriate drive this may also necessitate drivers to communicate with them, and QNAP likely wouldn't support the cards because they won't have the drivers loaded.

That's why the QM2 cards looked so promising. I just can't figure out why they decided to make them PCIe Gen 2, since Gen 3 would have potentially been twice as fast and backwards compatible with Gen 2 slots, albeit at the slower Gen 2 speed.


If you could get a Gen3 card that supported two NVMe drives and was compatible with your QNAP it should perform very well, with just a bit of a bottleneck. In my 2 card RAID 0 benchmark I hit a maximum read speed of around 5400MB/s. A single 4x Gen 3 slot would limit that to around 4000MB/s.

Model: TVS-1282
Firmware: QTS 4.3.3


Model: TS-459 Pro
Firmware: QTS 4.1.2
OS: Win10 Pro English
RAID 6: 2x HGST HDN724030ALE640 3TB, x2 Seagate ST3000VN000 3TB
External: USB Drive 3TB, eSATA Drive 2TB
Services: File Station, Backup Station (Rsync, External Drive), Surveillance Station 2, FTP
QPKG: CrashPlan, Plex Media Server, JRE, Optware IPKG
Network: 1 Gbps, MTU 1500

gregoinc
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: RE: Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby gregoinc » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:58 am

jds580s wrote:
gregoinc wrote:Thanks for that, I wonder if having two separate PCIE cards accounts for the higher performance? Because I have a TVS-882 and TS-563 the challenge for me was to find a single card that was PCIE x4 and would support 2 x M.2 NVMe SSD drives. That was primarily due to the TS-563 only having a single PCIE x4 slot.

I tried to find a 'generic' card similar to the one you found on Amazon, but I could never find a card that supported the 2 x M.2 NVMe SSD drives. Most 2 slot generic cards will support 1 x NVMe and 1 x SATA M.2 on the one card, but as I said I never found one that supported 2 x M.2 NVMe drives.

Thanks again for sharing.

There are not many options for two NVMe drives on one PCIe card at the moment, but there are a few. Here are some I've seen online:
http://amfeltec.com/squid-pci-express-c ... ?view=list
http://amfeltec.com/products/pci-expres ... sd-modules
http://www.ioi.com.tw/products/prodcat_ ... ostID=2067
http://amfeltec.com/products/pci-expres ... e-modules/
http://barefeats.com/hard210.html
http://www8.hp.com/us/en/workstations/z ... ve-g3.html

There are a number of things that would caution me away from using them in a QNAP NAS.
Some are PCIe 8x or 16x and may not work with your QNAP unless you have one of those slots available
Some are not low profile if you need that size bracket
Some orient the drives sticking up from the PCIe connector and may not fit in your NAS's case
Most cards with multiple drives need some kind smarts on board to direct traffic to the appropriate drive this may also necessitate drivers to communicate with them, and QNAP likely wouldn't support the cards because they won't have the drivers loaded.

That's why the QM2 cards looked so promising. I just can't figure out why they decided to make them PCIe Gen 2, since Gen 3 would have potentially been twice as fast and backwards compatible with Gen 2 slots, albeit at the slower Gen 2 speed.


If you could get a Gen3 card that supported two NVMe drives and was compatible with your QNAP it should perform very well, with just a bit of a bottleneck. In my 2 card RAID 0 benchmark I hit a maximum read speed of around 5400MB/s. A single 4x Gen 3 slot would limit that to around 4000MB/s.


Thanks again, appreciate you sharing your research. I came across the Squid cards in my quest to find a suitable M.2 solution, but unfortunately I was put off from using it as an 'experiment' because of the price i.e. was way above the price of a QM2.

Real shame about the QM2 card being Gen 2... I figured there must have been a reason QNAP took that path, but I guess we'll never know. For my TVS-882 I may look at the single cards you chose because they are very price competitive and I have the slots available in the TVS-882.

I will leave the QM2 card in my TS-563 as it is happily working... albeit slower than I would like :D

kherr4377
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby kherr4377 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:11 am

probably to be compatible with more of their product line .....
Production :
TVS-673 4.3.3 0210
4 X 3TB WD RED : 1 X 4TB HGST DESKSTAR R5
32GB
LAN-10G1SR-D, FiberHal for Cisco SFP-10G-SR
NETGEAR ProSAFE SS3300-28X

Backup :
TS-469L 4.3.3 0210
4 X 3TB WD RED R5
3GB
Located detached garage .. cheap offsite solution ...

2nd TS-469L awaiting drives and reassignment for front-line duty .......

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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby Moogle Stiltzkin » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:01 pm

NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-653A w. 4x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TS-659 Pro w. 5x 2TB Samsung EcoGreen F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB Western Digital RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TS-228
[Backup] QNAP TS-128 w. 1x 1TB Western Digital RE3 (WD1002FBYS)

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Guides and useful articles posted by me
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
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immtech
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby immtech » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:38 pm

bokr71 wrote:Qts.:

In a TVS-882T, I will have the two cards (the 10G network card and the Thunderbolt card) preinstalled, but as I do not need the 10G network card, I was thinking of replacing that with the QM2-2P card. Will that work?

Also, if I install a QM2-2P with 2 x Samsung 960 Pros in a TVS-882T, will that be faster for SSD caching than using 2 x Samsung 850 EVOs in the M.2 slots?



Any suggestion for this?
I'm an owner of TVS-882 just when became available last year, and I've purchased 2 960pro 512 nvme at that time.

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jds580s
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby jds580s » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:15 pm

immtech wrote:
bokr71 wrote:Qts.:

In a TVS-882T, I will have the two cards (the 10G network card and the Thunderbolt card) preinstalled, but as I do not need the 10G network card, I was thinking of replacing that with the QM2-2P card. Will that work?

Also, if I install a QM2-2P with 2 x Samsung 960 Pros in a TVS-882T, will that be faster for SSD caching than using 2 x Samsung 850 EVOs in the M.2 slots?



Any suggestion for this?
I'm an owner of TVS-882 just when became available last year, and I've purchased 2 960pro 512 nvme at that time.


Based on the limited results from the QM2-2P card that have been posted in the forums, using it with 960 Pros will not be faster than using 850 EVOs in the internal M.2 slots.
If speed is what you are after, and you are not using any of the 3 PCIe slots in your TVS-882, I would recommend putting two dumb PCIe 3.0 x4 to M.2 NVMe adapater cards in, then use the 3rd slot for 10GbE or whatever else your setup requires.

Also keep in mind the limitations with Read/Write SSD caching on QNAP devices that have been discussed elsewhere on the forums. Having write cache enabled can severely slow down transfer rates in many common use cases.

Model: TVS-1282
Firmware: QTS 4.3.3


Model: TS-459 Pro
Firmware: QTS 4.1.2
OS: Win10 Pro English
RAID 6: 2x HGST HDN724030ALE640 3TB, x2 Seagate ST3000VN000 3TB
External: USB Drive 3TB, eSATA Drive 2TB
Services: File Station, Backup Station (Rsync, External Drive), Surveillance Station 2, FTP
QPKG: CrashPlan, Plex Media Server, JRE, Optware IPKG
Network: 1 Gbps, MTU 1500

karels74
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Re: TVS-882 and QM2 card

Postby karels74 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:27 pm

I can confirm the reads as per above for the 2 pcie cards ( https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01 ... UTF8&psc=1 ) in 2 slots setup with 960pro 1tb nvmes:

Code: Select all

[admin@KSQ1 ~]# hdparm -t /dev/md1
/dev/md1:
 Timing buffered disk reads:  15734 MB in  3.00 seconds = 5244.28 MB/sec


Code: Select all

[admin@KSQ1 ~]# qcli_storage -T force=1
fio test command for physical disk: /sbin/fio --filename=test_device --direct=1 --rw=read --bs=1M --runtime=15 --name=test-read --ioengine=libaio --iodepth=32 &>/tmp/qcli_storage.log
fio test command for RAID: /sbin/fio --filename=test_device --direct=0 --rw=read --bs=1M --runtime=15 --name=test-read --ioengine=libaio --iodepth=32 &>/tmp/qcli_storage.log
Start testing!
Performance test is finished 100.000%...
Enclosure  Port  Sys_Name      Throughput    RAID        RAID_Type    RAID_Throughput   Pool
NAS_HOST   P2-  1/dev/nvme1n1  3.26 GB/s     /dev/md1    RAID 0       4.58 GB/s         288
NAS_HOST   P1-  1/dev/nvme0n1  3.09 GB/s     /dev/md1    RAID 0       4.58 GB/s         288


Code: Select all

[admin@KSQ1 ~]# qcli_storage -t force=1
fio test command for LV layer: /sbin/fio --filename=test_device --direct=0 --rw=read --bs=1M --runtime=15 --name=test-read --ioengine=libaio --iodepth=32 &>/tmp/qcli_storage.log
fio test command for File system: /sbin/fio --directory=test_device --direct=0 --rw=read --bs=1M --runtime=15 --name=test-read --ioengine=libaio --iodepth=32 --size=128m &>/tmp/qcli_storage.log
Start testing!
Performance test is finished 100.000%...
VolID   VolName             Pool     Mapping_Name            Throughput      Mount_Path                    FS_Throughput
3       DataVol1            288      /dev/mapper/cachedev1   4.18 GB/s       /share/CACHEDEV1_DATA         3.79 GB/s

I should be soon testing this card: https://www.thedebugstore.com/squid-fs- ... -fs-4.html as to 'how big or small the difference will be' .. I would prefer to have the second x16 slot in my TVS-682 free for GPU. Also some folks have been testing the x16 4xnvme beast here http://barefeats.com/hard220.html .. but the results do not justify the cost for my needs.


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