WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Printers, HDDs, USB/eSATA drives, 3rd-party programs
Post Reply
shake-the-disease
Know my way around
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 6:24 am

WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by shake-the-disease » Thu May 21, 2009 5:42 pm

I've been investigating which HDD's to buy for a QNAP and stumbled across this thread http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... hp?t=51401

Basically it identifies a (potential?) problem with WD Green HDDs & Linux in particular. Seems the WD drives park if they have no activity after 8 seconds, and linux seems to only access the HDD every 30. As a result there's a lot of park/unpark activity. Given the rated life of a WD drive is 300,000 parks/unparks then potentially that figure could be reached in just 100 days with a Linux OS (eg QNAP).

What do you think? Seagate?
TS-239 w/ SqueezeCenter 7.7.2, MusicIP, SSOTS 4.14, streaming to SB Touch & Boom, 10k+ tracks
TS-101 --> now sold

User avatar
fstrange
Been there, done that
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:19 am
Location: Aarhus, Denmark

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by fstrange » Sat May 23, 2009 12:41 am

Hi

Thanks for this post, since i was expecting to purchase Western Digital 1 TB (WD1000FYPS) for my new TS-239 next week.

I've read the article and might buy WD drives even though. If anybody would like to recommend another 1 TB drive, please be my guest :wink:

But it would really be a relief if QNAP could handle this (potential) WD issue.
Regards, Fredrik Strange
QNAP TVS-473 [4.3.4.0569 build 20180501], 2 x 500 GB Samsung 850 EVO M.2 SSD [RAID1], 2 x 8 TB WD Red WD80EFZX [RAID1]
QNAP TS-559 Pro II [4.2.6 Build 20171018], 2 x 2 TB Seagate ST32000641AS [RAID 1], 3 x 2 TB Seagate ST32000641AS [RAID 5]
[Plex, LMS 7.7.2, CrashPlan 6.6.0, Resilio]

bobertuk
Easy as a breeze
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:12 am

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by bobertuk » Sat May 23, 2009 2:17 am

Have been using a 2TB WD20EADS (Western Ditigital 'Green') for two months, 16 hrs each day, on a QNAP TS-509 Pro. According to the information provided through your link, and looking at the disc SMART results....

009 Power_On_Hours 728
193 Load_Cycle_Count 128

This suggests that after 728 operational hours, there have been 128 disc park events. That gives me about 800 years mtbf - obviously not the case in real life but it does indicate that there isn't a problem! Not on my QNAP/WD20EADS anyway.

Hope that helps.

Bob
1 x Touch - LMS 7.7.1 SQLite - SSOTS v4.14
1 x Radio
1 x Boom
Lavry DA-10 DAC
QNAP TS-509 3.5.2 build 1124T
Starfish Pre-amp : Based on NAIM
Heavily modified NAIM NAP 250 Power-amp
Behringer DEQ2496
Linn Isobarik DMS

shake-the-disease
Know my way around
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 6:24 am

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by shake-the-disease » Sat May 23, 2009 5:31 am

Thanks. Reportedly the head park/unpark events in latter firmware is reported as start_stop_cycles. Is that also low?

Here's a good summary from our brothers at Synology http://forum.synology.com/enu/viewtopic ... 24&t=11682 . It seems the three platter EADS drives aren't affected (WD10EADS, WD15EADS) and that the 4 platter EADS drives are also probably not affected. The 4 platter EACS drives are affected though. Maybe. Probably. :? :?
TS-239 w/ SqueezeCenter 7.7.2, MusicIP, SSOTS 4.14, streaming to SB Touch & Boom, 10k+ tracks
TS-101 --> now sold

drfruit
Easy as a breeze
Posts: 408
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:27 pm

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by drfruit » Sat May 23, 2009 5:14 pm

My WD10EADS have the same value for Start_Stop_Count as for Load_Cycle_Count. In my case, 501 for almost 3000 power_on_hours.
I am glad I forked out a few more euros and waited a few days longer for delivery of the EADS version, even though my decision was based on of the larger buffer.

User avatar
eagle00789
Know my way around
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:28 am
Location: Planet Earth Location:Europe Location:Netherlands Location:Limburg Location:Heerlen

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by eagle00789 » Mon May 25, 2009 7:48 am

WD15EADS

Power_On_Hours 421
Start_Stop_Count 7
Load_Cycle_Count 6
Power_Cycle_Count 5
Image
TS-259: WDC WD15EADS-00R6B0 01.0 1.5TB, 1x SAMSUNG HD501LJ CR10 500GB | Single Disk Config | UptimeProj | Python | IPKG | Q-EXT | NZBGet 0.4.0 | XDove
Image
Acer Aspire One A150

jakub82
Starting out
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:07 am

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by jakub82 » Mon May 25, 2009 2:17 pm

I have struggled with this problem with WD10EACS drives when I installed them. Solved it by turning off IntelliPark with wdidle3.exe.
viewtopic.php?f=142&t=7697

Good to know that newer EADS are not affected!
TS-509 Pro (v3.4.0 Build 1207), 5x1TB WD10EACS RAID5 - IntelliPark off, TLER on
TS-119 (v3.3.8 Build 1217), 2TB WD20EARS (internal), 2TB WD20EARS (usb1) - IntelliPark off, AAM on
TS-109 II (v3.3.0 Build 0924), 2TB WD20EARS - IntelliPark off, AAM on

littlemauro
Starting out
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:20 am
Location: Italy

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by littlemauro » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:00 am

bobertuk wrote:Have been using a 2TB WD20EADS (Western Ditigital 'Green') for two months, ....[CUT]....

This suggests that after 728 operational hours, there have been 128 disc park events. That gives me about 800 years mtbf - obviously not the case in real life but it does indicate that there isn't a problem! Not on my QNAP/WD20EADS anyway.

shake-the-disease wrote:...[CUT]... It seems the three platter EADS drives aren't affected (WD10EADS, WD15EADS) and that the 4 platter EADS drives are also probably not affected. The 4 platter EACS drives are affected though. Maybe. Probably. :? :?

jakub82 wrote:I have struggled with this problem with WD10EACS drives when I installed them. Solved it by turning off IntelliPark with wdidle3.exe.
viewtopic.php?f=142&t=7697

Good to know that newer EADS are not affected!

Sorry but it's not true.
As you can read here...
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... 274#458274
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... 321#458321
EADS are also affected by the "head park issue". But WD mask the problem not updating the Load Cycle Count.
And also the wdidle3 workaround is not the better solution for these reasons:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... 066#469066
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... 264#464264

I was very interested on buy 2x wd10eads drives for my new TS-219P but according to this state of place i will look at other HD manufacturers. :(
1. TS-219P
2. 3.3.6 Build 1109T
3. Win 7 Ultimate 64bit
4. Italian
5. 2 Samsung HD103SI (RAID1)
6. Services enabled : Windows FS, Twonky Server
7. NAS connection speed/MTU : 1Gb/9000

joeyjoey
Starting out
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:01 pm

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by joeyjoey » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:56 am

Has this been resolved???????????
Littlemauro's post about WD just masking the problem by not updating the count has me concerned to the point that I've been delaying my hdd purchase. Can anyone confirm that recent firmware updates (for either the QNAP or the WD) have fixed anything?


littlemauro wrote:
bobertuk wrote:Have been using a 2TB WD20EADS (Western Ditigital 'Green') for two months, ....[CUT]....

This suggests that after 728 operational hours, there have been 128 disc park events. That gives me about 800 years mtbf - obviously not the case in real life but it does indicate that there isn't a problem! Not on my QNAP/WD20EADS anyway.

shake-the-disease wrote:...[CUT]... It seems the three platter EADS drives aren't affected (WD10EADS, WD15EADS) and that the 4 platter EADS drives are also probably not affected. The 4 platter EACS drives are affected though. Maybe. Probably. :? :?

jakub82 wrote:I have struggled with this problem with WD10EACS drives when I installed them. Solved it by turning off IntelliPark with wdidle3.exe.
viewtopic.php?f=142&t=7697

Good to know that newer EADS are not affected!

Sorry but it's not true.
As you can read here...
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... 274#458274
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... 321#458321
EADS are also affected by the "head park issue". But WD mask the problem not updating the Load Cycle Count.
And also the wdidle3 workaround is not the better solution for these reasons:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... 066#469066
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... 264#464264

I was very interested on buy 2x wd10eads drives for my new TS-219P but according to this state of place i will look at other HD manufacturers. :(

shake-the-disease
Know my way around
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 6:24 am

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by shake-the-disease » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:33 am

1) The issue with WD green drives is still there, evidence strongly suggests it is being masked
2) There is still a lack of any evidence that this issue is translating into WD green HDD failures
3) Other manufactures have their own relibility issues

If #1 overshadows #2 & #3 in your mind, then buy a Samsung or Seagate if only for the peace of mind. Otherwise buy a WD green drive.

FWIW I bought a WD green drive fully aware of the 3 factors I listed above being in play.

EDIT: But when I migrate to RAID-1 (currently got a single drive) it will be using a drive other than WD Green as risk mitigation.
TS-239 w/ SqueezeCenter 7.7.2, MusicIP, SSOTS 4.14, streaming to SB Touch & Boom, 10k+ tracks
TS-101 --> now sold

littlemauro
Starting out
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:20 am
Location: Italy

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by littlemauro » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:42 pm

shake-the-disease wrote:2) There is still a lack of any evidence that this issue is translating into WD green HDD failures

Yes. You're right.
shake-the-disease wrote:If #1 overshadows #2 & #3 in your mind, then buy a Samsung or Seagate if only for the peace of mind. Otherwise buy a WD green drive.

This is my case. (2x Samsung F2 Ecogreen HD103SI ).
shake-the-disease wrote:EDIT: But when I migrate to RAID-1 (currently got a single drive) it will be using a drive other than WD Green as risk mitigation.

That's it! :D
1. TS-219P
2. 3.3.6 Build 1109T
3. Win 7 Ultimate 64bit
4. Italian
5. 2 Samsung HD103SI (RAID1)
6. Services enabled : Windows FS, Twonky Server
7. NAS connection speed/MTU : 1Gb/9000

falofolio
Getting the hang of things
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:55 pm

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by falofolio » Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:47 pm

Hi,

I am a bit worried after reading this thread, because I have two WD10EADS in my 2-bay QNAP. They are only two months old. Although it is stated that there is no evidence that it will affect the lifetime of the HDs, I would like to know how to interpret the figures in this thread.

Numbers on Power_On_Hours, Start_Stop_Count, Load_Cycle_Count, and Power_Cycle_Count have been posted here, but I am not an expert on how to interpret these numbers as I don't know what is normal for these parameters. Of course, I can imagine that those figures strongly depend on how you use your NAS. May be percentages are then a better way of analyzing the situation?!

I read that you can de-activate IntelliPark with the app 'wdidle3.exe', but I cannot find it at Western Digital. Is it third-party software? Is there a Mac-equivalent to it?

Ciao

joeyjoey
Starting out
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:01 pm

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by joeyjoey » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:59 pm

falofolio,
Hopefully others can give a more definitive and complete answer, but here's what I know after looking into all of this because I too had purchased an EADS drive.

First, wdidle3 is no longer officially available as it was created for older drives. It will VOID your warranty if applied to the EADS drives; this was in an official communication from WD though I do not have a link now. Of course, you can still use it at your own risk, but I also read that the EADS drives have a built-in 25 second timeout no matter how large you make this value in wdidle3. This seems to mean the drive will still go through a load cycle every 30 seconds, it will just park after 25 seconds instead of 8 seconds, but still move back to the tracking position again when the 30 second mark arrives. Maybe this is why WD only even mentioned this option for their enterprise drives which do not have the built-in 25 second timeout. This is all just stuff I've read.

I doubt your numbers show anything disturbing, because from what I've read WD modified the firmware for these drives to not report what they referred to as an "artificially" inflated load cycle count (though I'm not sure what exactly is, or could possibly be, so artificial about it). In any case, if your drives were afflicted with the original lcc problem you'd see numbers reflecting up to 2 load cycles per minute, but depending on your use perhaps somewhere between a third to 90% of that rate; it should be MUCH smaller in all liklihood otherwise (as very rough guesses maybe 10-50 per day instead of something near 1000 or more).

I would be VERY curious as to what your exact numbers are, particularly if the STOP_START_COUTNT is the same as the LOAD_CYCLE_COUNT. Others have said that WD masked the problem by reporting the stop_start count as the LCC, instead of reporting the true number of disk parking activities. They said this was done for the later edition 3 platter EACS drives, but I wondered if the same was not done for the EADS drives when they were released.

falofolio
Getting the hang of things
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:55 pm

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by falofolio » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:01 pm

Hi Joeyjoey

joeyjoey wrote:First, wdidle3 is no longer officially available as it was created for older drives. It will VOID your warranty if applied to the EADS drives; this was in an official communication from WD though I do not have a link now. Of course, you can still use it at your own risk, but I also read that the EADS drives have a built-in 25 second timeout no matter how large you make this value in wdidle3. This seems to mean the drive will still go through a load cycle every 30 seconds, it will just park after 25 seconds instead of 8 seconds, but still move back to the tracking position again when the 30 second mark arrives. Maybe this is why WD only even mentioned this option for their enterprise drives which do not have the built-in 25 second timeout. This is all just stuff I've read.


I read that you can also switch off the IntelliPark feature completely, instead of increasing the timeout value. Still, I will think twice before using this tool.


I would be VERY curious as to what your exact numbers are, particularly if the STOP_START_COUTNT is the same as the LOAD_CYCLE_COUNT. Others have said that WD masked the problem by reporting the stop_start count as the LCC, instead of reporting the true number of disk parking activities. They said this was done for the later edition 3 platter EACS drives, but I wondered if the same was not done for the EADS drives when they were released.



Here is what I found for my two disks:

Disk#1
004 STOP_START_COUNT: 130
009 Power_On_Hours: 356
012 Power_Cycle_Count: 43
193 LOAD_CYCLE_COUNT: 130

Disk#2
004 STOP_START_COUNT: 140
009 Power_On_Hours: 356
012 Power_Cycle_Count: 53
193 LOAD_CYCLE_COUNT: 140

You see that LLC and SSC for both disks have equal numbers! These values seem normal. Right?

cheungtsw
Know my way around
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:16 pm

Re: WD Green Drives no good for QNAP's??

Post by cheungtsw » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:14 pm

I am not sure if I have the problem.
Mine is the WD10EADS-00M2B0 which I bought it recently for my old ts-209ii and upgraded to ts-219pro 2 days ago.
Below are the smart values:

spin_up_time 7341
start_stop_conunt 80
power_on_hours 141
power_cycle_count 12
power-off_retract_count 11
load_cycle_count 6657
TS-209ii --> TS-219Pro --> TS-419P+ --> 412+ --> 1512+ & TS-221

Post Reply

Return to “Hardware & Software Compatibility”