Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Printers, HDDs, USB/eSATA drives, 3rd-party programs
janwer
Starting out
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by janwer » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:20 pm

Separate NAS like TS-431P2 is much better and more futureproof than TR-004 and only 50$ more expensive.
If I were you I'd:
- immediately buy 8TB USB HDD and do backup,
- buy TS-431P2 or more expensive Intel version if you have Plex and transcoding and use it as a new main NAS with one volume on RAID5 and populate it from start with minimum 3 HDDs,
- keep old TS-251+ as secondary NAS only for backup with RAID0 or JBOD.
This way you have two backups (TS-251+ and USB HDD).
TVS-951x TS-431P2 Unraid

Fides_
Starting out
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by Fides_ » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:24 pm

Thanks for your message janwer,

I've looked at that NAS, and in the UK it works out to be £100 more expensive (before even buying the drives) and has pretty poor reviews, what is the difference between this NAS and the TS-251+, software wise as I like the QNAP OS and I know where I am at with my TS-251+ and this TS-431P2 looks like the same version of QTS which is good. But the TS-431P2 looks like a large downgrade (ARM, 1GB RAM) in terms of hardware which seems counter-productive, I think if I got a new NAS it would have to be better (which is again even more expensive)

But it seems that by buying a server instead of an expansion module I have to use my old server as a backup server (which is fine, good even) but this is at the cost of £400+ extra (as the hard drives are also expensive for backup on a 2 bay for a 4 bay) not to mention that having 2 servers will cost more in terms of power, noise, heat etc.

I honestly think for my uses this expansion module is completely fine, as it accomplishes the tasks I want AND the ones you suggest for cheaper than what you suggested. Only thing I lose out on is the EXTRA backup and whilst its nice to have an extra server with my data on lying around its also unneccesarily expensive (and costly to run). In the future (15+ years) if/when I upgrade my entire setup, I can buy a brand new server which will probably have new features by then (compared to the lack of difference between the TS-251+ and TS-431P2) and use what I'm currently using as a backup (pretty much what your suggesting now). I think what I'm going for is futureproof and also future-relevant.


At this point I'm fairly certain what I can do and what I won't be able to do which was the initial purpose of my post. I'm now just arguing my logic and how I think this will all go to see if I'm going wrong somewhere. Everyone seems to be telling me to buy a server rather than an expansion module but surely in my position and my needs its more relevant to get an expansion? I realise a server would be better for backups but I'd rather wait a good few years before I buy another server before I retire my current one for backups.

Thanks for your 2-Cents though its nice to have an open dialogue to debate my ideas/strategies of going about this.

Would you happen to know any good 8TB USB HDDs or maybe a 8TB internal HDD with a docking station that's compatible with my TS-251+ you would like to recommend?

Thanks,
Dean

janwer
Starting out
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by janwer » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:23 am

I bought 8GB RAM for 30$. You can save a lot buying model with 1GB and replace RAM yourself. TS-251+ is Intel, so many more apps which you probably don't need.
My TS-431P2 is secondary, for backup only. And so far it's perfect.
Refurbished HGST 3TB drives cost about 40$. I have 18 and no problems.
In Poland any 8TB discs cost about twice as much per TB as refurb HGST, so I stick witch cheap. :)
TVS-951x TS-431P2 Unraid

P3R
Guru
Posts: 10892
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by P3R » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:43 am

Fides_ wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:27 pm
Surely the RAID expansion module is more future-proof than buying a new 4-bay server...
No, I don't think that a USB-connected external chassis with no expansion capabilities is more future-proof than a NAS.

Also when you have the external backup disk, there's no rush to buy a new NAS today so you'll have time to save money. At first for buying new disks for the current NAS and later to buy a NAS with more bays.
...as I can have up to 2 if needed expansion modules on my current server (cheaper and for the same amount of extra storage space) buying a new server for main use and using my old as a backup will surely be putting myself into more of a corner because if I wanted to expand after that I'd have to buy yet another server and reconfigure it etc.
You would only need all those bays if you insist on 4 TB disks. I understand that you want to use 4 TB disks because you want to use your existing disks to the bitter end but you'll need to replace them soon anyway.

If you instead switch to 8 TB disks, a 4-bay NAS can have the same storage capacity as 2*TR-004 (24 TB). With your WD Greens about to die you have a golden opportunity to switch to more future-proof 8 TB disks. Yes they're more expensive up front but they will give you a cost-effective upgrade path for the future.

The reason I specifically recommended an 8 TB WD Red with a USB-dock/enclosure as your backup disk for now and not a fixed external disk like the one you looked at is that you could reuse the WD Red in a NAS later.

I had something like this in mind:
  1. Buy an 8 TB WD Red and a USB-dock/enclosure today.
  2. When your first WD Green die you replace both of them with a single 8 TB WD Red. It will offer the same capacity but be more reliable than 2*4 TB.
  3. When you can afford it, you buy a second 8 TB WD Red for your NAS and migrate the single disk to RAID 1 to get disk redundancy, system reliability and easier administration.
  4. When you can afford it, buy a nice new 4-bay Qnap (or whatever larger model you feel like at that point). You will probably be able to just move the disks over from the TS-251+ and continue to run the same configuration.
  5. When you need more storage capacity than 8 TB you buy as large disk/disks as you need to make the TS-251+ your backup (think about future-proofing the capacity when doing this). When you have the new NAS up and working AND have a backup copy of the data in your TS-251+, you can reuse the 8 TB disk that up until this point had been your external backup to migrate the RAID 1 to RAID 5 in the 4-bay.
  6. When you need more storage capacity than 16 TB you buy another 8 TB WD Red and expand your RAID 5 to 24 TB.
The above is a way to evolve your data storage step-by-step. It will probably take place over several years and may not happen exactly as I outline but it have flexibility for change of plans.

If you compare the cost I think you'll be surprised by that it's not really more expensive in total.
And finally put 2 decent performance drives in my NAS in RAID 1:
(probably the Seagate barracuda for the 2 year warranty and general reliability) https://www.scan.co.uk/products/1tb-sea ... viously-st
Oh no! Seagate (DM) Barracuda is again a disk intended for desktop computers and it's known to be a very bad choice in NAS/RAID applications.

NAS disks like WD Red, Seagate Ironwolf or better is recommended.
In the future (15+ years) if/when I upgrade my entire setup...
I'm afraid that 15+ years more out of a NAS that's already some years (as far as I know TS-251+ is a 4 year old model) is unrealistic.

In my plan you update with a new main NAS in some years from now so the expected system lifetime will be longer.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

Fides_
Starting out
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by Fides_ » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:34 pm

janwer wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:23 am
My TS-431P2 is secondary, for backup only. And so far it's perfect.
Refurbished HGST 3TB drives cost about 40$. I have 18 and no problems.
For me the NAS you suggest would be my primary and it would be a downgrade from my current so I don't think I'll do that sadly, as for the drives the fact you've had 18 scares me off unless they are all in use or something :lol:. Good for you that you can find stuff like that though, very nice.

P3R wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:43 am
With your WD Greens about to die you have a golden opportunity to switch to more future-proof 8 TB disks.

I had something like this in mind:
  1. Buy an 8 TB WD Red and a USB-dock/enclosure today.
What do you think about these?
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/8tb-sea ... 56mb-cache
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/2-bay-s ... sb-30-esat
I can see cheaper on amazon and such but SCAN has a finance option which is perfect cause I've just started a new job and don't get paid until the end of the month..
NAS disks like WD Red, Seagate Ironwolf or better is recommended.
What do you think about the Toshiba n300 range. They're rated for NAS and cheaper than other high-capacity drives. Also with a 3 year warranty which is the with highest I've seen on SCAN so far.
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/10tb-to ... 56mb-cache
The above is a way to evolve your data storage step-by-step. It will probably take place over several years and may not happen exactly as I outline but it have flexibility for change of plans.
The way you outline this is better than my current idea. I guess I was just so adamant about squeezing all life out of my greens but that no longer seems like the perfect option.

I think instead of an internal 8TB docked drive for backup I'll use a larger capacity one as I'm nearing full at the moment. Then after my greens die I'll buy another one, load my backup and then use RAID 1 until I save up enough for a new server to move to with brand new drives etc.

Thanks for your help

User avatar
Moogle Stiltzkin
Ask me anything
Posts: 7562
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:21 am
Location: Around the world....
Contact:

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:47 pm

toshiba n300 use more electricity (check the reviews), run hotter and are noisier.

reliability? no idea.

i rather get wd red or seagate ironwolf over those tbh.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 + 16gb ddr4 Crucial + QWA-AC2600 wireless adapter.
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II 1x 4TB HGST Deskstar NAS
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228 w. 1x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS)
[^] QNAP TS-128
Mobile NAS TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Windows 10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review

https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

P3R
Guru
Posts: 10892
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by P3R » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:13 pm

Fides_ wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:34 pm
What do you think about these?
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/8tb-sea ... 56mb-cache
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/2-bay-s ... sb-30-esat
I can see cheaper on amazon and such but SCAN has a finance option which is perfect cause I've just started a new job and don't get paid until the end of the month..
Yes Seagate Ironwolf and Toshiba N300 (I'm sorry I forgot to mention it earlier) are the alternatives to WD Red. They're both 7200 rpm (Ironwolf from 6 TB and up) so faster but most likely noisier. They use slightly more power than WD Red when idling (there's very little difference in power when in active use). They all have a 3 year warranty. I wouldn't hesitate to buy either had I been in the market for NAS disks at the moment and with the N300 being so much cheaper, that would be my choice.

Regarding the docking station I don't know about it as I have never tried any StarTech. I see no need for two slots but if you do, then I guess you could pay a slight premium for that.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

Fides_
Starting out
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by Fides_ » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:52 pm

I'd ideally get WD Red 10TB but the price difference is pretty significant at the moment so I'll go with the Toshiba for now (and maybe buy some Reds in a sale or something).

As for the docking station, do you have any that you recommend? StarTech have a very good reputation that I don't mind buying into and the dock itself isn't much more expensive than the others. The standard seems to be 2-bays as well.
The only problem is that most of the docks are officially tested up to 6TB/8TB. I need one that will work with both my QNAP TS-251+ and up to a 12-16TB drive so I can use it in the future as well. The search begins

** UPDATE
I've scoured google, scan, amazon for the highest supported drive sizes and I've found just 3 suitable docking stations that support 10TB+ (I doubt I'll ever need more than 12TB) but they seem too cheap in the same price range to be true. They do look nice though. What do you guys think:
16TB: https://www.amazon.co.uk/UGREEN-Externa ... B076X4WWZY
12TB: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07F3WC1BM/ref=emc_b_5_t
10TB: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00UAA4J6G/ref=emc_b_5_i

P3R
Guru
Posts: 10892
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by P3R » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:29 pm

I've only used Raidsonic Icy Box docks. First I had a IB-110StU3-B and when that failed after many years I bought a IB-117-U31.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

Fides_
Starting out
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by Fides_ » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:28 pm

P3R wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:29 pm
IB-117-U31.
I've seen this on SCAN but I skipped over it because it didn't say how well it handled excessively large drives (10/12/16TB). And for £50 which is double the other ones I've linked in the UK, I'm not sure its worth it unless you give it a personal recommendation of why its better (reliability/product life) and if you can confirm it handles excessively large drives (10TB - 16TB) and is compatible with QNAP.

Thanks, I'm excited to be almost done with the plan and finally be able to start implementing it!

Fides_
Starting out
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by Fides_ » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:39 pm

I also run a SMART check on my disks every month just in case something is going wrong and its all so far so good. I've tried to attach an imgur album of the results..

https://imgur.com/a/1d52afU

P3R
Guru
Posts: 10892
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by P3R » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:32 pm

Fides_ wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:28 pm
I've seen this on SCAN but I skipped over it because it didn't say how well it handled excessively large drives (10/12/16TB).
I'm only using a 6 TB disk but on the product page I linked previously you can read:
"Supports both 2.5" and 3.5" SATA HDD/SSD, capacity unlimited".
And for £50 which is double the other ones I've linked in the UK, I'm not sure its worth it unless you give it a personal recommendation of why its better (reliability/product life) and if you can confirm it handles excessively large drives (10TB - 16TB) and is compatible with QNAP.
I can only tell you that I have it connected to a Qnap (TS-1277) and it have worked well for 15 months (as long as I've had it). I would have bought a cheaper dock if it hadn't been for the fact that I have a USB 3.1 (Gen 2) port on the NAS. Not that it's in any way necessary but it was a fun thing to have when the hardware support was there.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

P3R
Guru
Posts: 10892
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by P3R » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:48 pm

I told you that you've been very lucky. Your Disk 1 have a Load Cycle Count of 2,896,126! Disk 2 is only at 812,292. They're probably specified to 300k so your Disk 1 is 9.5 times above the specification! :lol:
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

Fides_
Starting out
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:59 am

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by Fides_ » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:16 am

P13R wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:48 pm
I told you that you've been very lucky. Your Disk 1 have a Load Cycle Count of 2,896,126! Disk 2 is only at 812,292. They're probably specified to 300k so your Disk 1 is 9.5 times above the specification!
Oh my god that's insane. Very lucky indeed, probably should've bought some backup over 2 million cycles ago :lol:
I'm only using a 6 TB disk but on the product page I linked previously you can read:
"Supports both 2.5" and 3.5" SATA HDD/SSD, capacity unlimited".
Ah right I must have missed that and its not displayed on the SCAN page (I think) but in that case I think I'll go with an amazon one due to the fact my NAS doesn't have a 3.1 port and the entire drive is in an enclosure which I think looks quite nice.


Well guys I think that's it. My final plan is to run a backup on an external (internal docked) 10TB drive ASAP, and then wait for a drive in my NAS to fail and replace it with a new single 10TB drive. Then in the (far) future purchase a new server altogether and use my old as a backup whilst creating a RAID 5 environment with new disks etc.
Thanks for your help I think I would have made some costly mistakes if I didn't come here first.

P3R
Guru
Posts: 10892
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Help/Advice Needed on Expansion

Post by P3R » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:23 am

Cheers, it's Friday after all.

Hurry up with the backup and good luck!
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

Post Reply

Return to “Hardware & Software Compatibility”