Seagate ST2000DL003?

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doktornotor
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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by doktornotor » Thu May 09, 2013 4:52 am

ancaster wrote:It's not wrong for people to voice their frustrations especially if they were caught in the loop of buying these with the premise they were ok and then qnap adding them to the incompatibility list later.
Selling and replacing them is a huge inconvenience. After all, time is money on top of replacement price/sell differences.


Go voice your frustrations with the crappy drives manufacturer, NOT with QNAP. Completely useless to rant here. Seagate Community Forums. Seagate Technical Support.
I'm gone from this forum till QNAP stop wasting volunteers' time. Get help from QNAP helpdesk instead.
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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by ancaster » Thu May 09, 2013 6:29 am

doktornotor wrote:
ancaster wrote:It's not wrong for people to voice their frustrations especially if they were caught in the loop of buying these with the premise they were ok and then qnap adding them to the incompatibility list later.
Selling and replacing them is a huge inconvenience. After all, time is money on top of replacement price/sell differences.


Go voice your frustrations with the crappy drives manufacturer, NOT with QNAP. Completely useless to rant here. Seagate Community Forums. Seagate Technical Support.


It's not useless to someone sitting on these drives, shopping for a NAS, and stumbling onto this thread.
They don't work in a qnap, then maybe that person won't buy one.
Google keywords help both ways, here or there.
Regardless if they are inferior, at least they work in other environments, custom built or commercial.

"Your"? I'm not frustrated. I only have one and I just sold it.
And pointing at those who are just shows lack of empathy.
It's not your problem, it's not your money.

FWIW, I'm enjoying my qnap but if someone asks me, I'll give them the pros and cons.

Will I check compatibility the next time I shop for new drives? Of course I will. I had no idea what was wrong, the drive worked elsewhere. Googled the drive model+qnap, and bang, I'm here, problem solved. Another point to this thread. People learn from it.

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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by sanke1 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:32 pm

2 Years on and still working. 4 of these in Raid6 on TS-412.

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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by pwilson » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:15 am

sanke1 wrote:2 Years on and still working. 4 of these in Raid6 on TS-412.


Sharing this information here, provides no benefit to the QNAP NAS Community whatsoever.

The fact remains:


  1. The Seagate ST2000DL003 is NOT RAID certified.
  2. This drive does appear on the QNAP 3.5" HDD Compatibility List right under the heading: Not Recommended Hard Drives

    QNAP 3.5" HDD Compatibility List wrote:Image

    Note5 (WD Green & Seagate Green)
    These hard disk drives have passed QNAP lab's initial verification of compatibility. However, because many users have reported unstable experience with these hard disk drives, we do not recommend using these hard disk drives with QNAP products. WD10EADS-00P8B0 and WD15EADS-00P8B0 are not suggested because of slow performance and stability issues.

Any further questions about using Not Recommended Drives we can help you with? This message thread already has 513 "replies", but the facts still haven't changed. These drives are still not recommended by QNAP. Perhaps you should replace your Seagate ST2000DL003 drives before they become a problem.

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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by criminala » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:40 am

@Pwilson : you seem to ignore the important fact that they WERE on the compatibility list . Hence so many people bought them for their qnap nas . And as a result this thread has many replies of course . I've posted this before in a reply to you but it seems like invisible ink to your eyes .
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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by pwilson » Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:32 pm

criminala wrote:@Pwilson : you seem to ignore the important fact that they WERE on the compatibility list . Hence so many people bought them for their qnap nas . And as a result this thread has many replies of course . I've posted this before in a reply to you but it seems like invisible ink to your eyes .


It makes no difference where it "WAS". What matters is where it is "NOW", which is not recommended. It even states the reason for the change. Please check "current" QNAP 3.5" HDD Compatibility List for clarification as to the present status of this Make/Model of drive.

You'll find the information quoted in my previous post is unchanged from the text/graphic I provided. Please consult my previous post for clarification.

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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by gavindcht » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:27 am

Agreed, checking for compatibility can always be forgotten especially when we're trying to think about a lot of things. Huge chance it gets overlooked.

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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by ihartley » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:31 pm

Well to put the record straight (hopefully once and for all)......(yeah, right :-) )

1. Whilst the ST2000DL003 are not recommended, the ST1500DL003 is still on the list and they are exactly the same drive! So please, people, check all the facts before blaming the user!!
2. "RAID cerified" for most non-enterprise drives might mean better power performance, vibration handling, warranty, etc. But usually means TLER handling is changed and an extra $10. MTBF, error rate, SATA spec, etc is not different. If you think otherwise, you might as well take most of the drives off the list.
3. The ST1500DL003 and ST2000DL003 have a KNOWN issue (firmware bug) with cc32 firmware. Seagate know about this (although it's hidden quite well). You need to RMA the drives and ask for replacements with 002 product code suffix. These will be guaranteed minimum cc3c firmware and can be upgraded to cc3d firmware (also quite well hidden) that fixes the issue with these drives
4. Drives with cc32 firmware CANNOT be upgraded to cc3d, and randomly drop out of RAID arrays.

Been there. Done the RMA. Got the t-shirt.

I've also had the pleasure of a tour of the IBM Winchester, UK facility in the early 90s where HDDs were still manufactured. Interesting in that at the time people still referred to HDDs as "Winchester" disks, even though the name had nothing to do with this facility (named after the Winchester rifle).

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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by marshalleq » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:26 am

I still say if a drive can be on the compatibility list, regardless of i'ts new status that qnap is liable not seagate. QNAP tested them, they put them on their list and they have therefore made tons of people buy them. Seagate will say they're not supported in NAS up front so it aint seagates fault. END OF STORY.

QNAP should be liable for mis-directing it's customers. I can't go back and tell the drive manufacturer they don't work in a NAS and ask for money back as there's nothing wrong with the disks for their intended usage. I'm pretty sure if I could be bothered I could go through the legal system and the ruling would be that QNAP is liable for this one through and through. The worst thing is that the QNAP compatibility list can't be trusted. ** your finger and put it up to the wind, that's about as good as the list.

What we can trust is the drive manufacturer who has designed the drives for a specific use and will warrant them as such.

Interesting that they do seem to work without issues in the 412 boxes.

I liken this to getting a retrospective speeding ticket for a road that just had it's speed limit reduced and you getting fined now for what you did safely a year ago when it was higher. Same thing.

Interesting point from ihartley. All mine are cc32. Maybe I take them back one at a time.....
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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by schumaku » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:43 pm

marshalleq wrote:QNAP should be liable for mis-directing it's customers.
I Seagate (or whatever other manufacturer) is making disks where hardware-firmware combinations can cause errors (leading to a kick-off from the RAID) under some error conditions, it can't be the NAS vendor being in charge for this. These HDD have passed all compatibility test and test-runs (most likely with healthy disks, potentially with hardware not off-specs) so QNAP has added them to the list. Same happened to the wonderful WD Green in the past. New insights developed from own usage, and customer reports.

ihartley wrote:3. The ST1500DL003 and ST2000DL003 have a KNOWN issue (firmware bug) with cc32 firmware. Seagate know about this (although it's hidden quite well). You need to RMA the drives and ask for replacements with 002 product code suffix. These will be guaranteed minimum cc3c firmware and can be upgraded to cc3d firmware (also quite well hidden) that fixes the issue with these drives

Very interesting information. About what many community members here expected to be unveiled one day.

ihartley wrote:4. Drives with cc32 firmware CANNOT be upgraded to cc3d, and randomly drop out of RAID arrays.
This almost implies it's a hardware-firmware combination issue - which can't be fixed without replacing.

Obvious: Seagate wanted to avoid almost 100% of the shipped STnn00DL003 had to be replaced. Some links to Seagate sites on this topic would be nice.

Thank you for the insight!

-Kurt.

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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by ihartley » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:46 am

Well I would disagree and say it's a Seagate error. Assuming everyone is using the SATA spec, then if a drive doesn't meet the spec it's wrong. There is OBVIOUSLY a bug in the Seagate firmware - that's why a hardware/firmware upgrade did the trick. QNAP could - in their defence - list a drive model AND a firmware version (and hardware version) but that wouldn't really help anyone would it. And Seagate could recall all their drives - but 99.9% are probably not used in RAID.

The problem I experienced is that the drives can drop out of the RAID after a week, month or year, without rhyme or reason. So do what I did (which is documented on the Netgear forum before I switched NAS mfr!)
- tell Seagate about the issue
- ask for advance RMA so you can get new drives and swap them one at a time
- ask for the -302 suffix so you get the right hardware
- ?????
- PROFIT!

What SHOULD have happened is for Seagate to tell NAS vendors to tell their customers - but that's a business issue

As for disks being "NAS compatible" or not, SATA is SATA is SATA. You can talk vibration, lcc counts, TLER, blah blah blah. BUT EVERY SATA drive should work properly until failure (even if prematurely).

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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by pwilson » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:53 am

ihartley wrote:Well I would disagree and say it's a Seagate error. Assuming everyone is using the SATA spec, then if a drive doesn't meet the spec it's wrong. There is OBVIOUSLY a bug in the Seagate firmware - that's why a hardware/firmware upgrade did the trick. QNAP could - in their defence - list a drive model AND a firmware version (and hardware version) but that wouldn't really help anyone would it. And Seagate could recall all their drives - but 99.9% are probably not used in RAID.

The problem I experienced is that the drives can drop out of the RAID after a week, month or year, without rhyme or reason. So do what I did (which is documented on the Netgear forum before I switched NAS mfr!)
- tell Seagate about the issue
- ask for advance RMA so you can get new drives and swap them one at a time
- ask for the -302 suffix so you get the right hardware
- ?????
- PROFIT!

What SHOULD have happened is for Seagate to tell NAS vendors to tell their customers - but that's a business issue

As for disks being "NAS compatible" or not, SATA is SATA is SATA. You can talk vibration, lcc counts, TLER, blah blah blah. BUT EVERY SATA drive should work properly until failure (even if prematurely).


The fact remains:


  1. The Seagate ST2000DL003 is NOT RAID certified.
  2. This drive does appear on the QNAP 3.5" HDD Compatibility List right under the heading: Not Recommended Hard Drives

    QNAP 3.5" HDD Compatibility List wrote:Image

    Note5 (WD Green & Seagate Green)
    These hard disk drives have passed QNAP lab's initial verification of compatibility. However, because many users have reported unstable experience with these hard disk drives, we do not recommend using these hard disk drives with QNAP products. WD10EADS-00P8B0 and WD15EADS-00P8B0 are not suggested because of slow performance and stability issues.

Any further questions about using Not Recommended Drives we can help you with? This message thread already has hundreds of "replies", but the facts still haven't changed. These drives are still not recommended by QNAP. Perhaps you should replace your Seagate ST2000DL003 drives before they become a problem.

Your argument that SATA is SATA is SATA, is pointless, because Not RAID Certified = Not RAID Certified = Not RAID Certified.

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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by ihartley » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:24 am

pwilson wrote:Your argument that SATA is SATA is SATA, is pointless, because Not RAID Certified = Not RAID Certified = Not RAID Certified.


Sorry, I was referring to the INTERNATIONAL STANDARD SATA spec as defined by INCITS ". Perhaps you can provide me a reference to this "RAID certified" you keep talking about. Some drives are tested by NAS manufacturers and put on the approved list; this does not mean that all other drives will not work, just that they have not been tested by a particular manufacturer. Different manufacturers have different, often contradictory, lists.

The ST2000DL003 is not recommended because of a firmware bug, that later revisions fixed. Indeed QNAP do state that the drives "passed QNAP lab's initial verification of compatibility". The same could happen to RAID-certified enterprise level drives; people are fallible and make errors. Similarly, the WD EARS drives are not recommended, but will work fine as long as you turn off the aggressive load cycling.

A 2-4 bay NAS has the same drive mount characteristics as a standard PC chassis, so ANY drive that is certified for a PC will work in a small NAS (there is obviously an issue with TLER if it cannot be enabled causing the drive to drop out of the RAID array). Bigger devices may need better vibration handling, which enterprise level drives include.

The ST2000DL003 is CERTIFIED for use in a NAS - by Seagate.

So please, before you keep spouting the same old "not certified", understand what you mean. The drives you mention on your sig are desktop hard drives and NOT enterprise drives - no better than the drives you are criticising.

And, at the risk of also repeating myself, the ST1500DL003 is on the approved list, yet it is EXACTLY the same drive as the ST2000DL003. So how can it appear on this "holy tablet" of approved disks??

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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by doktornotor » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:37 am

ihartley wrote:Sorry, I was referring to the INTERNATIONAL STANDARD SATA spec as defined by INCITS ". Perhaps you can provide me a reference to this "RAID certified" you keep talking about.


Kindly see the HDD specs and Seagate/WD websites. These desktop drives are explicitely NOT supported for RAID usage by their vendors. You can find an extensive quote from WD website in this post for your convenience.

(On that note, go talk about the SATA spec to HDD vendors too. And on another note, the RAID is just the part making things worse, due to the way error recovery is being handled. No sane RAID controller/SW RAID implementation will wait endlessly till the bástardized HDD firmware finally gives up on reading/writing damaged blocks.)

Ranting here is, once again, absolutely useless and unproductive.
I'm gone from this forum till QNAP stop wasting volunteers' time. Get help from QNAP helpdesk instead.
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Re: Seagate ST2000DL003?

Post by P3R » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:34 am

ihartley wrote:And, at the risk of also repeating myself, the ST1500DL003 is on the approved list, yet it is EXACTLY the same drive as the ST2000DL003.
Of course it isn't "EXACTLY the same drive" because then it would also be named ST2000DL003 and not ST1500DL003... :roll:

Since there must be a firmware difference it isn't exactly the same but I agree, it is most likely equally bad for this usage and should also be on the list of non-recommended disks.
So how can it appear on this "holy tablet" of approved disks??
Most likely because the ST1500DL003 is so uninteresting that it was forgotten. It is 15 % more expensive per byte and only searched for about 1 % of the times compared to ST2000DL003 on a major price comparison site in my market. As NAS users much more than the average desktop disk buyer is looking for larger disks, the interest should be even less with this audience. Since nobody uses it in Qnaps, nobody reported any problems with it and nobody before you have spotted the mistake the guy managing the compatibility list at Qnap did. The ST1500DL003 was never tested by Qnap, it was put there because Seagate claimed it's compatibility should be the same as ST2000DL003. The ST1500DL003 should have been moved to non-recommended status along with the ST2000DL003.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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