Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

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P3R
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Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by P3R » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:09 pm

Well finally Seagate understood they were forced to carbon copy the concept from the WD Red line of disks and release a Seagate NAS line of disks. It is complete with the up to 5 limitation and all... :wink:

In six months or so we'll know if they have done the homework they failed with on a number of desktop disks lately...

Of course the disks are already on the Qnap disk compatibility list, yes they did copy the WD Red launch in detail. :lol:

Seagate NAS seems to already be in stock at resellers for the adventurous. Pricing is still a bit higher than WD Red but it should come down when the initial rush of the early adopters have settled down. I would expect Seagate NAS disks to remain slightly above the WD Red being 7200 rpm (this assumption about the Seagate rpm was a mistake by me, see more information at the bottom of this post) vs whatever the IntelliPower WD Red rpm actually is but it will put pressure on WD. Seagate also have the 4 TB version WD is still lacking...

This is very good for customers and the disk scene is finally starting to look brighter for us NAS/RAID users. It have been dark times for years now with the Thai floodings and Hitachi/Samsung being swallowed. Now we have the Hitachi disks resurrected as Toshiba and specific NAS disks competing at very decent prices. :D

Synchronized with the above launch Seagate renamed their Constellation CS line to Enterprise Value HDD but the false marketing remain. Anybody that actually read the specifications will spot that there is absolutely nothing "enterprise" with the warranty, Non-recoverable Read Errors per Bits Read, Load/Unload Cycles and MTBF of that disk. In my opinion such marketing is criminal! :evil:

Actually Load/Unload Cycles and MTBF is worse for the more expensive Seagate Enterprise Value HDD disks than it is for the previously mentioned NAS disks. I guess they will need to lie even more now to sell the c**p.

Edit: Seagate for some reason do not disclose the rpm in their data sheets but in the product manaual it is defined as "Low-RPM spindle speed" so possibly 5900 rpm? At least some sources on the net claim that number but personally I would prefer information from the manufacturer... :S
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:56 am

Quite happy to found this thread. I am just looking for some addtional drive for a remaining NAS and a new NAS.

Unless I have used some Seagte enterprise disks (4xST2000NM0011 in RAID 5 incl. 1 spare) in my current NAS what worked fine, I started searching with Seagte first.

I agree the Seagte NAS drive series is somehow strange unless they dont publish the rpm of these drives. I dont think there is a real reason for it...and because I dont want to play kindergarden they are out of the race already xD

However i looks like your not a big fan of seagte at all, I want to know why the actual enterprise drive (Enterprise Capacity 3.5 HDD/Constellation ES.3) are crabby in your eyes.

I just compared it WD4000F9YZ and the ST4000NM0033
Warrenty: 5 / 5 years
Non-recoverable Read Errors per Bits: <10 in 10^15 / 1 sector per 10E15
Load Cycles: 600K or 300K* / 600K
MTBF: 800K / 1.400K
AFR: 1,10% / 0,63%

*) depends on which source you go

Comparing these two drives, this doesnt look to bad for Seagte...

Edit: Typo

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by P3R » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:08 pm

johnripper wrote:However i looks like your not a big fan of seagte at all, I want to know why the actual enterprise drive (Enterprise Capacity 3.5 HDD/Constellation ES.3) are crabby in your eyes.
I never said that. I expect their true enterprise disks like the Enterprise Capacity (formerly called Constellation ES.3) to be great.

What I have problems with is their borderline criminal marketing. I repeat, there is absolutely nothing "enterprise" with the warranty, Non-recoverable Read Errors per Bits Read, Load/Unload Cycles and MTBF of their so called Enterprise Value line (formerly called Constellation CS), yet it is called Enterprise. :evil:

To that we can add the epic failure of the Seagate desktop disks in NAS/RAID applications the last few years, despite those disks being marketed as a "best fit" for Home server, DAS and NAS usage... :roll:
I just compared it WD4000F9YZ and the ST4000NM0033
In my opinion the ST4000NM0033 should really be compared with WD RE (WD4000FYYZ). That would be a more fair comparison, yet the Seagate may still look slightly better.

WD SE (WD4000F9YZ) is priced to compete with the above mentioned Seagate Enterprise Value line. Guess who wins that comparison... :wink:
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:23 am

P3R wrote:What I have problems with is their borderline criminal marketing. I repeat, there is absolutely nothing "enterprise" with the warranty, Non-recoverable Read Errors per Bits Read, Load/Unload Cycles and MTBF of their so called Enterprise Value line (formerly called Constellation CS), yet it is called Enterprise. :evil:

Oh I finally see your point. I dint get the point that you are refering to the the Constellation CS as I using the Constellation ES. I am sorry!

However what drive are u currently suggesting WD4000FYYZ (WD RE) or the ST4000NM0033 (Constellation ES.3/Enterprise Capacity), or something completly different?

I kind of like the 128MB Cache of the Seagte, even if I dont think this will boots the NAS perfromance markable (but the drive might be used outside the NAS later).
Also the Seagte (EUR 279) is a bit cheaper than the WD (EUR 305).

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by pwilson » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:11 am

johnripper wrote:
P3R wrote:What I have problems with is their borderline criminal marketing. I repeat, there is absolutely nothing "enterprise" with the warranty, Non-recoverable Read Errors per Bits Read, Load/Unload Cycles and MTBF of their so called Enterprise Value line (formerly called Constellation CS), yet it is called Enterprise. :evil:

Oh I finally see your point. I dint get the point that you are refering to the the Constellation CS as I using the Constellation ES. I am sorry!

However what drive are u currently suggesting WD4000FYYZ (WD RE) or the ST4000NM0033 (Constellation ES.3/Enterprise Capacity), or something completly different?

I kind of like the 128MB Cache of the Seagte, even if I dont think this will boots the NAS perfromance markable (but the drive might be used outside the NAS later).
Also the Seagte (EUR 279) is a bit cheaper than the WD (EUR 305).


How much is the Western Digital WD30EFRX NASware drive in your market?

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:21 am

pwilson wrote:How much is the Western Digital WD30EFRX NASware drive in your market?

Around EUR 117* as per today.

However I dont see the advantage of these NAS drives.

*if you order between 0-6am daily, otherwise you need to add EUR 8 postage (LOL/no joke)

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by pwilson » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:42 am

pwilson wrote:How much is the Western Digital WD30EFRX NASware drive in your market?


johnripper wrote:Around EUR 117* as per today.

However I dont see the advantage of these NAS drives.

*if you order between 0-6am daily, otherwise you need to add EUR 8 postage (LOL/no joke)


Yeah, I believe you, this is not a joke. An additional 8€ for postage, just for the privilege of ordering during "normal" hours? Yeah that is obnoxious!

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:26 am

Or a discount for shopping on no buisness hours (howevery you want to see it), if you see the postale fee as normal.

Whatever, why did you ask for the WD30EFRX?

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by pwilson » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:34 am

johnripper wrote:Or a discount for shopping on no buisness hours (howevery you want to see it), if you see the postale fee as normal.

Whatever, why did you ask for the WD30EFRX?


Just for comparison purposes. WD30EFRX sells for $149.99CAD (approx 110.18 €) here.

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by schumaku » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:41 am

pwilson wrote:WD30EFRX sells for $149.99CAD (approx 110.18€) here.


About CHF 149.00 here, 8% VAT included (approx. 114 € or 105 € ex VAT)

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by P3R » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:10 am

johnripper wrote:However what drive are u currently suggesting WD4000FYYZ (WD RE) or the ST4000NM0033 (Constellation ES.3/Enterprise Capacity)...
I'm not familiar with either and therefore won't make any suggestions. Based on the pricing, I would expect them both to be excellent.
...or something completly different?
I have been very pleased with both desktop and enterprise Hitachi disks (exact models in my signature below) so personally I would definately have them in the evaluation also.
I kind of like the 128MB Cache of the Seagte, even if I dont think this will boots the NAS perfromance markable (but the drive might be used outside the NAS later).
Also the Seagte (EUR 279) is a bit cheaper than the WD (EUR 305).
So better specifications AND cheaper. Oh that's a tough choice... :wink:
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:14 am

I store a lot of personal data on this NAS. So I am fine with spending some money for enterprise drives.

johnripper wrote:(...)I just compared it WD4000F9YZ and the ST4000NM0033
(...)
Non-recoverable Read Errors per Bits: <10 in 10^15 / 1 sector per 10E15(...)

Just realized: 10 in 10^15 = 1 in 10^14, so I guess the WD losses in this competion as well.

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by P3R » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:58 am

johnripper wrote:Just realized: 10 in 10^15 = 1 in 10^14, so I guess the WD losses in this competion as well.
I had totally missed that stunt from WD and it is a good find. It is however still a comparison between models in different segments. At least in my market the WD SE is almost 25 % cheaper than Seagate Enterprise Capacity (Constellation ES.3).

The claim for WD RE (WD4000FYYZ) is <10 in 10^16, which is in fact slightly better than the 1 in 10^15 for the ST4000NM0033. The Seagate wins in most other aspects though.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:21 am

P3R wrote:It is however still a comparison between models in different segments.

Sorry didnt want to be look unconvincible : )

I just quoted the post to show the difference, I understood what we talked above.

Edit: The WD4000F9YZ is EUR 227*

*Prices with shipping and VAT always.

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by fantomas » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:09 pm

in my comparison WD RED still stands better: 133.8 E vs. 137.27E for NAS Value. WD30FYYZ has 3y warranty vs. ST3000VN000 has only 2y and extra warranty (1y or 3y months) costs even more.
(yes, CZ&SK are small markets, that's why prices are higher).
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