Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

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itsmarcos
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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by itsmarcos » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:40 pm

It is worth reading this 4TB drives comparison by AnandTech.

Drives tested and compared

- Western Digital Red 4 TB WDC WD40EFRX
- Seagate 4 TB NAS HDD ST4000VN000
- Western Digital Se 4 TB WDC WD4000F9YZ
- Western Digital Re 4 TB WDC WD4000FYYZ

It's really a pity that Hitachi 4TB drives were not included in the list

Primary
QNAP TS-253B [4.3.x]
- disk 1: WDC Red WD60EFRX
- disk 2: WDC Red WD80EFZX
Local backup
QNAP TVS-951X [latest 4.3.x]
- disk 1: WDC Red WD80EFZX
- disk 6&7: Samsung SSD Evo 500GB, RAID 1, SSD Cache
Remote backup
QNAP TS-219 P+ [latest 4.3.x]
- disk 1: HGST Deskstar 7K3000 HDS723030ALA640 3TB
- disk 2: WDC Red WD40EFRX

johnripper
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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:36 am

Nice link thanks.

Too bad that Seagate Enterprise Drives are not included as well.

The WD SE or RE shouldn't be compared with NAS drives.

Gaspode
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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by Gaspode » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:51 pm

johnripper wrote:Nice link thanks.

Too bad that Seagate Enterprise Drives are not included as well.

The WD SE or RE shouldn't be compared with NAS drives.


Why not out of interest ? WD themselves class the three together for different uses ? Ie they have a little app with drive compatibility of red/se/re saying se for 6-12 bay nas ... Surely it's worth comparing ? Interestingly if you look at the QNAP 5 bay they don't recommend the red but the SE ...

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by schumaku » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:12 pm

Gaspode wrote:Interestingly if you look at the QNAP 5 bay they don't recommend the red...


Guess you misunderstand the Note 12 from the HDD compatibility tables:

Note12 (3TB & 4TB HDDs)
Not applicable to TS-509 Pro. TS-639 Pro does not support >16TB disk volume.


-> The TS-509 is not supported for large drives as the earlier manufactured units don't have a SATA chip able to deal with large capacity HDD beyond of 2 TB - this is not a general valid limitation.

Note24
According to the HDD manufacturer's specification, this series of hard drive supports only 1- to 5-bay tower-based NAS systems.


-> This is per the WD Red specification, nothing invented by QNAP. Semi-official reason are interferences which might be caused by rotational vibration leading to performance and potential data loss.

Gaspode wrote:... but the SE ...
I don't think QNAP does recommend specific HDD brands, or HDD models.

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:56 pm

Gaspode wrote:
johnripper wrote:Nice link thanks.

Too bad that Seagate Enterprise Drives are not included as well.

The WD SE or RE shouldn't be compared with NAS drives.


Why not out of interest ?

Totally different specification, usage scenarios and price. Just to compare these drives, that hey have been compared is less usefull and doesn't say nothing.

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by Gaspode » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:49 pm

schumaku wrote:
Gaspode wrote:Interestingly if you look at the QNAP 5 bay they don't recommend the red...


Guess you misunderstand the Note 12 from the HDD compatibility tables:

Note12 (3TB & 4TB HDDs)
Not applicable to TS-509 Pro. TS-639 Pro does not support >16TB disk volume.


-> The TS-509 is not supported for large drives as the earlier manufactured units don't have a SATA chip able to deal with large capacity HDD beyond of 2 TB - this is not a general valid limitation.

Note24
According to the HDD manufacturer's specification, this series of hard drive supports only 1- to 5-bay tower-based NAS systems.


-> This is per the WD Red specification, nothing invented by QNAP. Semi-official reason are interferences which might be caused by rotational vibration leading to performance and potential data loss.

Gaspode wrote:... but the SE ...
I don't think QNAP does recommend specific HDD brands, or HDD models.


Thats not the case on the WD site however as they (and I) know that the TS509 in many cases (my self included) is quite happy with 3 and 4 TB drives as the SATA chipset in the later models work with them quite happily as many on these forums will vouch. *THAT* isnt what I was pointing out as it happily says 3TB and 4TB drives will work...

As I said ... the WD 'Tool' recommends the SE for the 5 drive NAS rather than the RED - even though on the same page say 1 - 5 drivesd RED and 6 -12 Drives SE ...

G.

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by Gaspode » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:54 pm

johnripper wrote:
Gaspode wrote:
johnripper wrote:Nice link thanks.

Too bad that Seagate Enterprise Drives are not included as well.

The WD SE or RE shouldn't be compared with NAS drives.


Why not out of interest ?

Totally different specification, usage scenarios and price. Just to compare these drives, that hey have been compared is less usefull and doesn't say nothing.


Hmm - I used it as a way of camparing features over price - which is why I think ANAND did it - thats my take any way but I see what you mean ...

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by Phrehdd » Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:18 pm

It sure seems difficult to find a cost effective way to populate or repopulate a QNAP device when there is no absolute measures available on performance and possible failure rates.

I have a 559pro that is presently populated with old but (to me) amazingly robust slow drives - Samsung 2tb 5400rpm drives. They have never given me any issues from day one but alas, they are getting old and time to repopulate. I was hoping to get price effective 4tb drives and this leaves the Seagate 5900 VN or the Red WD drives. Beyond the speed difference, I cannot see (my error perhaps) any consistent reviews comparing the two for NAS use in my situation. The 559p that I am using is strictly for media storage only so doesn't need to be built with the fastest drives nor constant rewrites, destroy/delete etc.

If anyone has a clear suggestion on what to get, given they are priced so similar, I would appreciate it and the why of the choice over the other drive.

I have also a 469L that is populated with the WD Red 3tb drives. They work fine but somehow this unit behaves a bit different than my 559p with the Samsung drives. I can't put my finger on it but the 559p appears to be on uploads a tiny bit faster and 'smoother' overall if that makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

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itsmarcos
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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by itsmarcos » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:20 pm

Phrehdd wrote:It sure seems difficult to find a cost effective way to populate or repopulate a QNAP device when there is no absolute measures available on performance and possible failure rates.

I have a 559pro that is presently populated with old but (to me) amazingly robust slow drives - Samsung 2tb 5400rpm drives. They have never given me any issues from day one but alas, they are getting old and time to repopulate. I was hoping to get price effective 4tb drives and this leaves the Seagate 5900 VN or the Red WD drives. Beyond the speed difference, I cannot see (my error perhaps) any consistent reviews comparing the two for NAS use in my situation. The 559p that I am using is strictly for media storage only so doesn't need to be built with the fastest drives nor constant rewrites, destroy/delete etc.

If anyone has a clear suggestion on what to get, given they are priced so similar, I would appreciate it and the why of the choice over the other drive.

It is worth reading this 4TB drives comparison by AnandTech.

Drives are almost the same in terms of theoretical reliability with the

Non-recoverable read errors per bit read: <10 in 10E14 (both)
MTBF: 1,000,000 hours (both)
Load/Unload cycles: 600,000 (seageate) 300,000 (WD Red)

Phrehdd wrote:I have also a 469L that is populated with the WD Red 3tb drives. They work fine but somehow this unit behaves a bit different than my 559p with the Samsung drives. I can't put my finger on it but the 559p appears to be on uploads a tiny bit faster and 'smoother' overall if that makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


There's no easy answer on this. It could be a NAS model difference and/or the drives (WD intellipower vs constant 5400 rpm on the Samsungs)

Primary
QNAP TS-253B [4.3.x]
- disk 1: WDC Red WD60EFRX
- disk 2: WDC Red WD80EFZX
Local backup
QNAP TVS-951X [latest 4.3.x]
- disk 1: WDC Red WD80EFZX
- disk 6&7: Samsung SSD Evo 500GB, RAID 1, SSD Cache
Remote backup
QNAP TS-219 P+ [latest 4.3.x]
- disk 1: HGST Deskstar 7K3000 HDS723030ALA640 3TB
- disk 2: WDC Red WD40EFRX

johnripper
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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:27 am

Values are partly wrong:
itsmarcos wrote:Drives are almost the same in terms of theoretical reliability with the

Non-recoverable read errors per bit read: <10 in 10E14 (both)
MTBF: 1,000,000 hours (both)
Load/Unload cycles: 600,000 (seageate) 300,000 (WD Red)

The correct values are (WD WD40EFRX/WD30EFRX/WD20EFRX/WD10EFRX vs Seagate ST4000VN000/ST3000VN000/ST2000VN000):

    Non-recoverable read errors per bit read: <1 in 10^14 (WD); 1 in 10^14 (Seagate)
    MTBF: 1,000,000 hours (both)
    Load/Unload cycles: 600,000 (WD) 600,000 (Seagate)
    Warrenty: 3 years (WD); 2 years (Seagate)
itsmarcos wrote:There's no easy answer on this. It could be a NAS model difference and/or the drives (WD intellipower vs constant 5400 rpm on the Samsungs)

IntelliPower does not mean that rpm is not constant. Evenmore IntelliPower does not change the rpm of the drive. WD claims that rpm is between 5.400 and 7.200, but there are enough material around, that stats it basically around 5.400 rpm.

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itsmarcos
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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by itsmarcos » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:07 am

johnripper wrote:Values are partly wrong:

The correct values are (WD WD40EFRX/WD30EFRX/WD20EFRX/WD10EFRX vs Seagate ST4000VN000/ST3000VN000/ST2000VN000):

    Non-recoverable read errors per bit read: <1 in 10^14 (WD); 1 in 10^14 (Seagate)
    MTBF: 1,000,000 hours (both)
    Load/Unload cycles: 600,000 (WD) 600,000 (Seagate)
    Warrenty: 3 years (WD); 2 years (Seagate)

Thanks for correcting the '10' typo and the wrong Load/Unload Cycles of WD (anandtech got their figures wrong in the comparison page! )

johnripper wrote:IntelliPower does not mean that rpm is not constant. Evenmore IntelliPower does not change the rpm of the drive. WD claims that rpm is between 5.400 and 7.200, but there are enough material around, that stats it basically around 5.400 rpm.

I never claimed that Intellipower's rpm is not constant. WD officially defines it as "A fine-tuned balance of spin speed, transfer rate and caching algorithms designed to deliver both significant power savings and solid performance. For each drive model, WD may use a different, invariable RPM.". The 'significant power savings" phrase suggests that the motor is less powerfull, which probably results to longer spin-up time when disks are idle.

Primary
QNAP TS-253B [4.3.x]
- disk 1: WDC Red WD60EFRX
- disk 2: WDC Red WD80EFZX
Local backup
QNAP TVS-951X [latest 4.3.x]
- disk 1: WDC Red WD80EFZX
- disk 6&7: Samsung SSD Evo 500GB, RAID 1, SSD Cache
Remote backup
QNAP TS-219 P+ [latest 4.3.x]
- disk 1: HGST Deskstar 7K3000 HDS723030ALA640 3TB
- disk 2: WDC Red WD40EFRX

johnripper
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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:50 am

itsmarcos wrote:
johnripper wrote:Values are partly wrong:

The correct values are (WD WD40EFRX/WD30EFRX/WD20EFRX/WD10EFRX vs Seagate ST4000VN000/ST3000VN000/ST2000VN000):

    Non-recoverable read errors per bit read: <1 in 10^14 (WD); 1 in 10^14 (Seagate)
    MTBF: 1,000,000 hours (both)
    Load/Unload cycles: 600,000 (WD) 600,000 (Seagate)
    Warrenty: 3 years (WD); 2 years (Seagate)

Thanks for correcting the '10' typo and the wrong Load/Unload Cycles of WD (anandtech got their figures wrong in the comparison page! )

Better use original sources :lol:

itsmarcos wrote:
johnripper wrote:IntelliPower does not mean that rpm is not constant. Evenmore IntelliPower does not change the rpm of the drive. WD claims that rpm is between 5.400 and 7.200, but there are enough material around, that stats it basically around 5.400 rpm.

I never claimed that Intellipower's rpm is not constant. WD officially defines it as "A fine-tuned balance of spin speed, transfer rate and caching algorithms designed to deliver both significant power savings and solid performance. For each drive model, WD may use a different, invariable RPM.". The 'significant power savings" phrase suggests that the motor is less powerfull, which probably results to longer spin-up time when disks are idle.

For me that's mostly marketing blabla.

Anyway even if I normally recommend the Seagate Enterprise Drives, I use the WD Red Series in this segment. Three years warranty is still an argument...

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by Phrehdd » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:29 am

Thanks all for the input. Naturally, I am still on the fence here. I do like the idea of 5900 rpm drives that run cool but a 2 year warranty is rather abysmal given that most drives have three years. I suppose being a new drive, Seagate is a bit wary of failure rates given there is no real history yet for these drives. I admit I wish Samsung was still in the business with their drives as they were moderate performers that were built pretty well and ran very cool.

Are there any other 5400 or 5900 rpm drives that are worth considering that wont kill my wallet?

Again thanks all for your input and the information (contrast and compare that was straight forward and clinical).

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by johnripper » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:20 pm

Not sure if Seagate is really worried about the failure rates. I rather think its more a try to reduce the product quality in this duopoly market. They also tried this in there enterprise segment and limited the warranty to two (or three years) for some drives. As they noticed that WD didn't do the same and the customers naturally were very unhappy about this while having still other alternatives, they got back to the five year warranty.

So as sayed duopoly market, there is no real other choice anymore. You can think about Hitachi (what's a WD company), but they only have a very limited offer and nothing specific for NAS. I never used Hitachi, so someone else say something about that.

As you want warranty of theoretically lower failure rates you must choose some enterprise drives.

Otherwise the WD RED or Seagate NAS Series are your choice.

As a personal advice: Stop worrying at this point about the "perfect" drive and just choose one of the WD or Seagate drives listed above. Invest futher thoughts into a good backup strategy and/or concept that you need anyway.

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Re: Seagate NAS disks released (ST4000VN000)

Post by eggberteh » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:46 am

eggberteh wrote:Just thought i would post my experience. As sometimes success stories don't make it onto places like this.

I have 5 Seagate ST4000VN000 in a Qnap TS-559 setup for RAID 5.

To be fair they have only been running a few weeks but they all worked on arrival & have so far been faultless and very quiet.

So far a happy camper.


Just thought I would post an update, my drives have been running 24x7 for just over 3 months now without issue in a ts-559 still quiet and reliable so far.

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