TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

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wuthmvp
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by wuthmvp » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:57 pm

I have very similar issues to you'res my Qnap is tvs-1282t3, i try changing Smb protocols to older versions but this doest help, i can also download very fast by upload is nearly imposible, i can upload very smal files ( like text files) the larger files cant upload stock at 0%
Im also connect to nas by thunderbolt, and on the other computer evrything work fine (write and read),..

HiTach
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by HiTach » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:18 pm

I was able to load a fresh Windows 10 Pro version 1809 and confirm that Thunderbolt networking via the QNA-T310G1T Thunderbolt 3 to 10Gbe adapter works at expected speeds to both my EC1080+ and TVS-872XT. It was broken on 1909.

I'm still testing the TB3 to TB3 direct connection, when connecting with Qfinder Pro I repeatedly get asked to enter an IP config for the Thunderbolt Bridge, and a support ticket is in process.

The QNAP support rep I spoke to yesterday did recognize TB3 networking is broken on 1903/1909.

Along the way I discovered that 1903/1909 updated my recovery image so I had to source an old Windows install media.
Workstation DAS/NAS: TVS-872X(T) *Thunderbolt card removed due to Windows10 1909 bug
8x10TB WD Gold RAID6 54TB static volume
2x1TB Samsung 970 EVO plus R/W RAID1 cache w/EK WB M.2 heatsinks + 2x NB 12-P fans
1x40Gbe Mellanox DAS network connection, 1x10Gbe QXG-10G1T for local 10gbe virtual switch
Backup NAS: TVS-872XT
8x10TB WD Gold RAID6 54TB Thick volume w/snapshots
1x40Gbe Qnap Thunderbolt 3 card, 1x10Gbe QXG-10G1T for local 10gbe virtual switch
LAN switch 10Gbe(2)/1Gbe(8) NETGEAR Nighthawk SX10 (GS810EMX)

wuthmvp
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by wuthmvp » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:55 am

So the solution is to install old version of windows 10 (for example for 2017) and stop automatic updates?

HiTach
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by HiTach » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:17 am

That is what I have done at the moment.
Windows Update (10 Pro) allows you to delay feature updates, and allow security updates, for up to 365 days, and/or Pause all updates for ~30 days.
Also I have removed the TB3 card from my 872XT and replaced it with a QXG-10G1T card connected to either my QNA-U35G1T USB3 to 5Gbe adapter (300-500 MB/s) or my QNA-T310G1T TB3 to 10Gbe adapter (800-1100 MB/s) until Microsoft/Qnap/Thunderbolt gets sorted out. Don't forget to enable Jumbo packets 9000.
The direct TB3 to TB3 connection from my Win10 Pro 1809 workstation laptop was not reliable as mentioned above.
Two Mellanox MT27520 Family [ConnectX-3 Pro] 40Gbe cards, one in my desktop and one in the 872XT gives me smooth fast speeds without blinking.
If I could find a QSFP+ to 10Base-T RJ45 Ethernet adapter I would use the second port on the Mellanox and leave the TB3 card installed.
Waaay too much time spent on this. Happy to hear others' progress.
Workstation DAS/NAS: TVS-872X(T) *Thunderbolt card removed due to Windows10 1909 bug
8x10TB WD Gold RAID6 54TB static volume
2x1TB Samsung 970 EVO plus R/W RAID1 cache w/EK WB M.2 heatsinks + 2x NB 12-P fans
1x40Gbe Mellanox DAS network connection, 1x10Gbe QXG-10G1T for local 10gbe virtual switch
Backup NAS: TVS-872XT
8x10TB WD Gold RAID6 54TB Thick volume w/snapshots
1x40Gbe Qnap Thunderbolt 3 card, 1x10Gbe QXG-10G1T for local 10gbe virtual switch
LAN switch 10Gbe(2)/1Gbe(8) NETGEAR Nighthawk SX10 (GS810EMX)

metaldave
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Re: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by metaldave » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:10 am

The 1903 image (dated 9/9/2019) did not yield a positive result. This is not surprising as I'd used this image prior to my latest system repair of the computer with no success. I installed the base OS, disabled the automatic updates in Windows Update, and installed the current Thunderbolt software.

Incidentally, I thought I would document the driver load for the Thunderbolt software here. It's from 2018, and, obviously, this is the latest package recommended from Lenovo for my model, Yoga 920-13IKB Laptop (ideapad) - Type 80Y7.

Thunderbolt Software

Code: Select all

Package Version:            17.4.76.300   4/25/2018
Application Version:        17.4.76.8     4/25/2018   C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\Thunderbolt.exe
Service Version:            17.4.76.5     4/25/2018   C:\Program Files (x86)\Intel\tbsvc.exe
Controller Driver Version:  17.4.76.9     4/25/2018   tbtbusdrv.sys (tbt100x.sys)
Networking Driver Version:  17.4.76.4     4/25/2019   tbtmpdrv.sys (tp2p100x.sys)
Thunderbolt Controller

Code: Select all

Thunderbolt Generation:     Thunderbolt 3 (15D2)
Number of Ports:            2
Security Level:             User Authorization (SL1)
NVM Firmware Version:       22.03
External GPUs Supported:    Yes
I tried loading the following offline installer updates (as I had prior):
  • 2019-10 Cumulative Update for Windows 10 Version 1903 for x64-based Systems (KB4522355) - Dated 10/23/2019; Installed 11/11/2019
  • 2019-10 Cumulative Update for .NET Framework 3.5 and 4.8 for Windows 10 Version 1903 for x64 (KB4522741; KB4519573 ID Post-Install)
  • 2019-10 Cumulative Update for .NET Framework 3.5 and 4.8 for Windows Server 2019 (1903) for x64 (KB4524100; KB4515871 ID Post-Install)
... but no improvement.

Just to confirm, this is the setup:
  • Thunderbolt Networking implemented via a single, short-length Thunderbolt 3-rated cable between the computer and the NAS directly
  • IP Addresses are provided by the NAS for the Thunderbolt Networking connection via DHCP
The symptoms are the same:
  • Cannot Upload Files of Any Size via Thunderbolt Networking; Windows 10 stalls the transfer immediately and will time-out with a dialog box asking to "Try Again," Cancel, or Skip the file.
  • Can Download files fine via Thunderbolt Networking
  • Can upload to the same share via Gigabit Ethernet without a problem (slower, but completely reliable); Thus, it's not the NAS, storage caching, or the like.
  • I was, at one point, able to perform the file transfers in both directions; Updates to the OS changed that situation.
Please let me know if I'm forgetting to add anything. I will, likely, open a case again with both QNAP and Lenovo after I confirm the situation is repeatable (i.e. I can get it to work again with an older rev of Win10 and break it with updates).

metaldave
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by metaldave » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:13 am

HiTach wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:18 pm
Along the way I discovered that 1903/1909 updated my recovery image so I had to source an old Windows install media.
FYI: There are a number of methods to source the old install media directly from Microsoft. There are free utilities that can find the Microsoft link for the image you're looking to find or you can get lucky and find the older Media Creation Tool from Microsoft directly.
Last edited by metaldave on Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

metaldave
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by metaldave » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:15 am

wuthmvp wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:55 am
So the solution is to install old version of windows 10 (for example for 2017) and stop automatic updates?
To concur with HiTach, the answer is, "Yes."

However, I am fairly confident I was running some version of 1903 that did work. Unfortunately, it was NOT the 1903 image (interestingly enough), but an earlier image that was upgraded to an early revision of 1903 via Windows Update. I'm not sure where the "sweet spot" is as yet, but I'm on my way to figuring that out (as it might provide a clue as to what breaks it).

metaldave
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Re: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by metaldave » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:07 am

After a lot of wipes and clean installs, I found a path back to operational. It does, indeed, appear the Feature Update to Windows 10, version 1909 (or the previous 1903) will disrupt the functionality of Thunderbolt Networking.

I am running a clean install based upon a Windows 10 Version 1809 image that I downloaded from Microsoft via the Rufus bootable USB tool. Rufus is a portable binary that does not require installation. Make sure to allow Rufus to check for updates online as this enables the drop-down menu; Rather than SELECT, you can choose DOWNLOAD. This takes you through a script to select the specific version, release, edition, language, and architecture of Windows you want to download, and Rufus will generate the appropriate Microsoft link to download the image.

I tried the following images:
  • 19H2 (Build 18363.418 - 2019.11)
    - The latest edition of Windows 10; Where I started.
    - Note: I used the Media Creation Tool to download this image (Win10_1909_English_x64.iso).
  • 19H1 (Build 18362.356 - 2019.09)
    - Image file: Win10_1903_V2_English_x64.iso
  • 19H1 (Build 18362.0 - 2019.05)
    - Image file: Win10_1903_V1_English_x64.iso
  • 1809 R1 (Build 17763.1 - 2019.09) - the one that worked
    - Image file: Win10_1809_English_x64.iso
NOTE: The program wasn't generating the correct link for the 1809 R2 (Build 17763.107 - 2018.10) which was the October release that followed R1. It kept generating a link for the R1, so that's what I ended up running with. I tried again today, and it looks like Rufus now does correctly generate the R2 image link (Win10_1809Oct_English_x64.iso). It might save you some Windows Update steps, but I was not able to test it.

When I installed Windows, I did it offline to ensure that no updates would download (as Windows Update immediately starts downloading drivers upon first login). I had all the current drivers saved on a separate disk, so I could ensure that I was using the current and correct versions on a consistent basis. After that, I checked for Thunderbolt Networking functionality. With all releases of Windows 10 newer than the 1809 image, Thunderbolt Networking would fail on the upload test (stalling as noted earlier).

After the 1809 release proved to be functional, I connected to the network and allowed Windows Update to run it's course through multiple reboots. After all updates, the final build for 1809 came out to 17763.864. The only offering through Windows Update at this point was to take the offer to Download and Install the "Feature update to Windows 10, version 1909" (which is not an automatic update). As long as you don't perform this manual selection to update, I believe you will retain the Thunderbolt Networking functionality.

I realize the clean install option is not a viable one for most users (nor is the amount of time it takes to reload a Windows 10 machine), but I believe it's the only available workaround at this point. I haven't seen anything to indicate that Microsoft or the machine vendors (Lenovo in my case) have acknowledged the issue. If anyone has any further information on activities to address this from any source, please share it.

Mikeskoptsov
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by Mikeskoptsov » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:49 am

Has anyone found any other info/solutions on this by chance?

dafloydman
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by dafloydman » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:51 am

I have just completed a fresh install of w10 1809 and can report that my transfer speeds are now working fine on
my ts453bt.

doodlewalker
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by doodlewalker » Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:15 am

Hmm, so having the same issue with my 472XT, I have it connected to my main PC via 10GB direct connection and eveything is fine, however I have a NUC and a Laptop with TB3 that I need to connect directly in. Both have one way copy issues as described. All machine's running 1909. I changed my NUC to use the Windows insider preview Build 19551.rs_prerelease.200118-2023 and it still has the same issue. I have also used a Lacie TB3 external enclose and this is fine. So it looks like this isn't getting fixed anytime soon. I find it hard to believe that since 1903 all windows TB3 networking has been faulty, I cannot find any other example/posts with the same issue withj different kit so more likely a subtle interaction between 1903 onwards and Qnap implementation, and if it's not fixed in windows by now Qnap will have to look at a fix or statement that windows 10 is NOT supported/compatable.

We are evaluating the 472XT and was just about to sign off on a load, but this is a show stopper for us. I will open a ticket with QNAP and see what they say as it is still unresolved.

metaldave
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by metaldave » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:09 am

dafloydman wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:51 am
I have just completed a fresh install of w10 1809 and can report that my transfer speeds are now working fine on
my ts453bt.
Glad to hear you had success as well! I have not looked at 1909, but it sounds like the issue still persists in that version of Windows 10 as well.

metaldave
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Re: TVS-882T: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by metaldave » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:27 am

doodlewalker wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:15 am
I have also used a Lacie TB3 external enclose and this is fine.
I suspect the Lacie is just a storage enclosure, so that, likely, does not use Thunderbolt Networking for connectivity. I'd appreciate if you could confirm this.
doodlewalker wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:15 am
I find it hard to believe that since 1903 all windows TB3 networking has been faulty
Agreed. However, I imagine the use of TB3 and Thunderbolt Networking is limited to a select group of users (i.e. not your average consumer) due to the expense of the equipment involved in the workflow.
doodlewalker wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:15 am
I cannot find any other example/posts with the same issue withj different kit so more likely a subtle interaction between 1903 onwards and Qnap implementation
There are other posts out there, but this thread had the most detail for the scenario we're using.

I haven't tested Thunderbolt Networking with another NAS device to see if that's a consistent issue with Windows 10 v1903 or higher. A test with another vendor's NAS would, certainly, point the finger at either QNAP or Microsoft Windows 10. Again, please keep in mind this is Thunderbolt Networking and not a Thunderbolt 3 connection to a storage device.

I speculate there's not much to the QNAP side of the transaction here. Thunderbolt Networking is fairly straightforward emulation of an Ethernet interface. The elegance of the design is that it's just a straight cable connection. The processor and disk I/O does impact throughput, but I'd be very surprised if there's something in the QNAP implementation that prevents ingress transfers to the NAS (as we're describing here). Further, why would the egress file transfer (download from the NAS) still work as well?

Keep in mind: I've tested this with an iMac with Thunderbolt 2 (connected via Apple adapter to the Thunderbolt 3 ports), and that machine/OS has no problems with transfer. Myself, I've only got the one notebook with native Thunderbolt 3 (Lenovo running Windows 10) to test otherwise. However, it sounds like I'm not the only one with Windows 10 issues, and we've got a confirmation that version 1809 is working for others.
doodlewalker wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:15 am
...if it's not fixed in windows by now Qnap will have to look at a fix or statement that windows 10 is NOT supported/compatable.
I agree that QNAP would serve themselves well to put out a statement, but they'll need to have multiple tickets on the same issue to put the effort into it.
doodlewalker wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:15 am
We are evaluating the 472XT and was just about to sign off on a load, but this is a show stopper for us. I will open a ticket with QNAP and see what they say as it is still unresolved.
As above, the more tickets to QNAP, the better. Please let us know what you find out.

metaldave
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Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by metaldave » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:38 pm

I opened a ticket with QNAP Support to query them on some of the issues that were raised by @doodlewalker, and they responded with some credence of this being a known issue with Microsoft and the latest Windows 10 builds.

QNAP Support provided a link to a TechNet community post describing similar issues. However, this seems to be a community post rather than a statement that someone at Microsoft is actively troubleshooting.

Again, QNAP Support believes this is a known issue, and they further went on to say they are not the only brand with this issue. I'll keep you posted.
Last edited by metaldave on Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

doodlewalker
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Re: Thunderbolt networking is broken on Windows 10 Pro 1903

Post by doodlewalker » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:59 pm

metaldave wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:38 pm
I opened a ticket with QNAP Support to query them on some of the issues that were raised by @doodlewalker, and they responded with some credence of this being a known issue with Microsoft and the latest Windows 10 builds.

QNAP Support provided a link to a TechNet community post describing similar issues. However, this seems to be a community post rather than a statement that someone at Microsoft is actively troubleshooting.

Again, QNAP Support believes this is a known issue, and they further went on to say they the only brand with this issue. I'll keep you posted.
In reply to you comments in the original post above the Lacie enclosure is not TB Networking (sorry I didn't make that clear), I was using that as proof the TB ports we're working in the Win10 devices and that I have sufficient storage perf (both NVME SSD's) in the attached devices to transfer at high speed. i.e I know the port is working ok.

My response from QNAP support was pretty disappointing, same as yours I expect. The fact that some guy has posted on Technet (but understandably didn't want to pay fore a ticket) seems to being provided as proof MS know there is an issue, and we have to wait for MS to "hopefully" fix it. I have asked why QNAP are not raising a paid ticket themselves and providing an official statement of progress. We purchased the TB3 variant specifically to link in with Windows machines, the TB3 boxes are being actively marketed and sold as being compatible with Windows, 1903 has been out almost a year (over a year if you we're on the insiders preview), saying the workaround is to go back to 1803 is not acceptable or practical now. We're an MS shop developing embedded through to cloud systems and we've have had our fair share of issues with MS and have had to pay for tickets before, we know what a pain it is, but we have to take ownership of the compatibility and problem resolution irrespective of who's fault it is.

In summary I have tried with a NUC and Laptop, both running win10 1909 and with the latest (15th Jan 2020) Intel TB drivers and it does not work. I have reverted the NUC back to Linux (it's a proxmox box) and that connects over TB3 fine with the speeds you'd expect. As originally noted I tried the 2020 Q1 insider preview and that also did not work.

If support don't have a more definitive statement then we're going to have to send this box back. Shame as it's a great product.

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