GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

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nevolex
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GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby nevolex » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:52 pm

Hi,

I hope that one day qnap adds support for GPU pass through for AMD models 473/673/873. The units are aver capable already in heavy load and hopefully the GPU support will make them even better.

Any updates on this topic?

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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Toxic17 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:23 pm

Best to contact QNAP directly on this. They should be able to advise if and when this feature could be released for the x73 series.
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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Trexx » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:59 pm

I have checked with Qnap on this and it won’t be happening for the x73 family unfortunately. The AMD chip doesn’t have the support needed for it.

They will be offering it though in the upcoming x77 family.


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Model: TVS-673 32GB FW: 4.3.3.0299 Build: 20170901
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Trexx » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:02 pm

Now I do know Plex is looking into the possibility of leveraging hw transcoding on the x73 but that is depending on some Linux drivers being ready. Different than GPU pass through.


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Paul

Model: TVS-673 32GB FW: 4.3.3.0299 Build: 20170901
Disks: [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar NAS SSD Cache: [RAID-1] 2 x 525GB Crucial MX300 m.2's
UPS: CyberPower AVR1350 Ext. Backup: USB 3.0 Seagate 5TB
Media Boxes: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro (4K), AppleTV 4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model: TS-453 Pro 16GB FW: 4.3.x (varies)

Father Mande's Kodi 17.4
Information needed when you ask for HELP
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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Moogle Stiltzkin » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:58 pm

how do you add the graphics to Virtual station though. You just click add graphics, thats it? or is there any other special setting you need to do :X

Emby just released a beta qpkg, so they may just reach gpu hw/a sooner than plex most likely. at least they got a NVENC in their settings which is missing in plex :'
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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Trexx » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:09 pm

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:how do you add the graphics to Virtual station though. You just click add graphics, thats it? or is there any other special setting you need to do :X


Again that depends on some HW GPU Passthrough support, which the the x73 AMD chip doesn't have.

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:Emby just released a beta qpkg, so they may just reach gpu hw/a sooner than plex most likely. at least they got a NVENC in their settings which is missing in plex :'


Plex has a different mindset regarding that I think then Emby mights.

Here is a quote from a Plex Support Engineer regarding the PlexPass Beta for HW Accelerated transcoding:

It it completely reasonable to expect one 'half' of Plex to go thoroughly 'off the hinges' if the other 'half' got external GPU support before they did.
That having been asserted as my basic premise, it's completely logical and fair to expect no external (graphics card based) GPU support won't be released until there is ample support for a variety. of them from both vendors. This is why libvaapi is so important. It provides the requisite interface for applications like PMS to work.

Look at this from the software architecture point.

  1. PMS on top - w/ FFMPEG libraries
  2. Plex Transcoder - w/ FFMPEG libraries
  3. libvaapi interface into Linux (other runtime libraries here as well)
  4. Linux kernel
  5. Linux kernel drivers
  6. CPU - GPU - peripheral controllers - Your graphics card here

The VA-API library provides a standard interface for applications which want to leverage hardware acceleration. Using nVidia or AMD proprietary display drivers buys almost nothing. Those are for 2D / 3D rendering. PMS deals in images not game objects. (which is what those help the most with). From the development perspective, it's far easier to develop and support one standard than two which are most likely released on different schedules.

All that having been said (aka. the TL;DR),

Yes, they need be completed and released together in fairness to all.

Having chatted with the team, there will be no serious consideration, discussion, or planning until such time as the library is released by Intel. It doesn't make sense to develop against a moving target when Intel has stated the API & ABI are subject to change. Our own quick scan shows there are substantial changes and we need to wait until Intel solidifies the library.

Our 'gut feel' is we will see `libvaapi released sometime around Christmas/end of year. Please don't take as a concrete date. Intel still has to add CoffeeLake (and whatever other 'Lake' they want to add) before they'll give it to us.

In the grand scheme, the library has been the most critical hurdle. Windows has this capability already but it wouldn't be fair to provide hardware acceleration to only Windows platforms. Hence we wait.


So they are waiting for being able to support everybody prior to releasing this. The big news is that the main library they need for linux (libvaapi) is close, which has been the main roadblock for a while.

As for Emby, if you look at the Linux Station deployment of it for HW Transcoding, there are SEVERAL steps/installs required by the end-user outside of the Emby package itself. Plex prefers to bundle everything they need all in one install, so that is also part of why they take a little longer. They make no assumptions regarding the users computer capabilities/knowledge.
Paul

Model: TVS-673 32GB FW: 4.3.3.0299 Build: 20170901
Disks: [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar NAS SSD Cache: [RAID-1] 2 x 525GB Crucial MX300 m.2's
UPS: CyberPower AVR1350 Ext. Backup: USB 3.0 Seagate 5TB
Media Boxes: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro (4K), AppleTV 4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model: TS-453 Pro 16GB FW: 4.3.x (varies)

Father Mande's Kodi 17.4
Information needed when you ask for HELP
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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Moogle Stiltzkin » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:28 pm

Trexx wrote:Again that depends on some HW GPU Passthrough support, which the the x73 AMD chip doesn't have.


oops sorry if i wasn't clear. i mean for the models THAT DO support this. e.g. like the one in the recent live presentation they were demonstrating for using graphics. wasn't talking about x73 series :)



FFmpeg, and libavcodec (which plex uses) can be compiled to use hardware acceleration to decode, and encode video. It requires libraries which aren't free, and requires permission and licensing to include. That's not the biggest issue, though it is a considerable hurdle.

How do i put this ... there should be a hardware transcoding option in plex, so that people know how bad the technology is, so they stop asking for it in the future.
It shouldn't be like this, but it's entirely due to the licensing required to get it to work across platforms that it took this long. and, it is a terrible choice because of the implementation that the 4 or 5 different companies require to get GPU encoding and decoding to work, removes the ability to control HOW the encoders work.
I sort of can't stress how bad a job hardware decoding of x264 content is on GPU's without examples.
i.e. like this from an ExtremeTech review from 2012, called "The wretched state of GPU transcoding" where they can't even show you how bad LOTR gets on intel/NVenc.
I might be picking on it intentionally, but as mentioned earlier, the main reason why everyone's gun-shy of GPU transcoding is, you can't tweak it or change it. The way that Intel and Nvidia have created the API's, you can't hack or change the acceleration, or put the quality back in. It is sold as-is, i.e. broken.
For streaming, GPU transcoding works fine. it is what it is, a known quality.
when the 2017/18/19 CPUs with HEVC encode/decode tech come out, VAAPI will have layed out a lot of groundwork to make x265 transcoding better, it might even be usable. Time will tell how good it is.

:shock:
https://www.reddit.com/r/PleX/comments/ ... iew_build/
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Trexx » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:37 pm

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:
Trexx wrote:Again that depends on some HW GPU Passthrough support, which the the x73 AMD chip doesn't have.


oops sorry if i wasn't clear. i mean for the models THAT DO support this. e.g. like the one in the recent live presentation they were demonstrating for using graphics. wasn't talking about x73 series :)


For the x77 family for example, you will have a choice in QTS to use the GPU for either QTS functions (transcoding/hd station/etc.) if it is an NVidia card, or VS (Nvidia & AMD). In VS itself, there is a setting option for enabling GPU Pass Through. https://www.qnap.com/en-uk/how-to/tutor ... on-station
Paul

Model: TVS-673 32GB FW: 4.3.3.0299 Build: 20170901
Disks: [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar NAS SSD Cache: [RAID-1] 2 x 525GB Crucial MX300 m.2's
UPS: CyberPower AVR1350 Ext. Backup: USB 3.0 Seagate 5TB
Media Boxes: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro (4K), AppleTV 4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model: TS-453 Pro 16GB FW: 4.3.x (varies)

Father Mande's Kodi 17.4
Information needed when you ask for HELP
| QNAP Links, Tutorials, etc. |Moogle's QNAP Faq | Plex NAS Compatibility Guide | QNAP Plex FAQ

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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Moogle Stiltzkin » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:53 pm

yeah i saw that but seems to be virtualization station 2 so wasn't sure if it still applied or not (UI changed alot in vs3).

i copied here, easier to read.

Virtualization Station Settings
1. Go to Virtualization Station > Device Management > GPU.


2. Choose a VM to apply GPU pass-through (the VM must be offline).


3. Connect a monitor to the graphics card, and USB keyboard & mouse to the NAS.
(Note: A monitor must be connected to the discrete graphics card in your NAS before starting the VM)


4.Start the VM.


5. Install the AMD graphics card driver. You can download it from the AMD website.
6-1. Please download and install driver version 15.11.

To find this driver, click “Download Previous Drivers & Software” after selecting the operating system of your VM.

Driver version 15.11 is recommended for a stable environment. You should also ensure that Windows Update does not automatically upgrade the driver.
6-2. Install remote connection tools (VNC server) using the QNAP Guest Tool. The VM console needs to install another VNC server for remote connection. The VNC server can be installed by using the QNAP Guest Tool that is built into the VM Driver (you can also use other tools such as Windows RDP, TeamViewer™ or Splashtop®).


6. Click “Insert VM Driver”.


7. On the VM console you should see an AutoPlay prompt where you can click “Open folder to view files”. If the AutoPlay prompt does not appear, go to “Computer” and check the CD/DVD drive.


8. Run “qnap-guest-tools-0.102.exe”.


9. Click “Next”.


10. Carefully read the License Agreement. You must agree to these terms to continue.


11. Check “QNAP Guest Agent” and “UltraVNC”. Click “Install”.


12. Click “Finish”.


13. Set a VNC server password.
After installing UltraVNC, the Server Property page will be displayed. You must set a VNC password for accessing the VM console. Create a password and click “OK”.


14. Restart the VM.


15. Go to the VM information page.
The console button will now be available as the QNAP Agent has obtained the IP address. After clicking “Console”, the QNAP Agent will automatically enter the VM IP address and the default VNC port automatically. Clicking “Connect” allows you to remotely access the VM console. The local HDMI display will simultaneously show the VM console.


• Limitation:
-If the monitor is removed from the graphics card, the VM's remote connection resolution will be fixed to 640*480. Reconnecting the monitor will allow you to readjust the resolution.
-VNC does not support DirectX 11. For DirectX 11 environments, you can use the VM console via the local monitor or use another remote connection tool such as TeamViewer™.
-Please check what operating systems your graphics card supports before attempting to install it in a VM.
-If you modify UltraVNC's RFB Port, please remember to specify this port number when connecting to the VM console.





well i just wanted to be sure how this worked before i committed to purchasing a new models come next year. Just not sure if it will work cause i'm missing some steps. Or i may as well just save on budget and opt for a cheaper model :(
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Trexx » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:03 pm

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:yeah i saw that but seems to be virtualization station 2 so wasn't sure if it still applied or not (UI changed alot in vs3)

well i just wanted to be sure how this worked before i committed to purchasing a new models come next year. Just not sure if it will work cause i'm missing some steps. Or i may as well just save on budget and opt for a cheaper model :(


Which ones are you looking at and what GPU use case?
Paul

Model: TVS-673 32GB FW: 4.3.3.0299 Build: 20170901
Disks: [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar NAS SSD Cache: [RAID-1] 2 x 525GB Crucial MX300 m.2's
UPS: CyberPower AVR1350 Ext. Backup: USB 3.0 Seagate 5TB
Media Boxes: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro (4K), AppleTV 4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model: TS-453 Pro 16GB FW: 4.3.x (varies)

Father Mande's Kodi 17.4
Information needed when you ask for HELP
| QNAP Links, Tutorials, etc. |Moogle's QNAP Faq | Plex NAS Compatibility Guide | QNAP Plex FAQ

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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Moogle Stiltzkin » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:42 am

Trexx wrote:
Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:yeah i saw that but seems to be virtualization station 2 so wasn't sure if it still applied or not (UI changed alot in vs3)

well i just wanted to be sure how this worked before i committed to purchasing a new models come next year. Just not sure if it will work cause i'm missing some steps. Or i may as well just save on budget and opt for a cheaper model :(


Which ones are you looking at and what GPU use case?


the model from qnap site, TVS-X82 available now. or alternatively if wait till early next year a x77 series. i'm looking in those price categories (cheapest of the models anyway to stay within budget, but not an ARM model this time around :shock: want to try something that can do plex and use VMs )

From Youtube.com




well was wondering if a NAS using virtualstation with graphics passthrough would be a viable 2 in 1 option for NAS storage and a permanent desktop replacement :) (can the vms be used in that way? other than just testing configurations before applying to production workstations. thats fine and all but i was wondering if could use as a permanent workstation itself, and then when a virus hits, you just recover to a saved vm snapshot, POOF. not sure if there is any downside to this, other than your other article you mention about having to do virtio for hdd performance )

hm...

:shock:
https://www.hardocp.com/news/2017/10/03 ... bedded_gpu

https://www.techpowerup.com/237033/amd- ... es-surface
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-653A w. 4x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TS-659 Pro w. 5x 2TB Samsung EcoGreen F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB Western Digital RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TS-228
[Backup] QNAP TS-128 w. 1x 1TB Western Digital RE3 (WD1002FBYS)

Other Network Devices
Asus AC68U AC1900 Router (RT Merlin firmware)|30mbps download/10mbps upload FTTH Internet | Windows 10 Enterprise, Water Cooled PC with Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides and useful articles posted by me
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Megathread] Qnap Frequently asked questions V2, click to read here

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Re: GPU pass through for tvs x73 series

Postby Trexx » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:47 am

Possibly... but the challenge is this. Right now for GPU passthrough (at least for x77 and assume will likely apply to x82), you can either map the GPU to QTS (HD Station/Native Plex/etc.) if you are using NVidia OR to VS (AMD/NVidia). It can't be leveraged by both at the same time.

So that may have some impacts regarding Plex once it starts supporting HW transcoding. You might be able to run plex within the VM with GPU passthrough, but not sure if it will support HW transcoding in that config, performance loss/difference vs. running native plex, etc.
Paul

Model: TVS-673 32GB FW: 4.3.3.0299 Build: 20170901
Disks: [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar NAS SSD Cache: [RAID-1] 2 x 525GB Crucial MX300 m.2's
UPS: CyberPower AVR1350 Ext. Backup: USB 3.0 Seagate 5TB
Media Boxes: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro (4K), AppleTV 4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model: TS-453 Pro 16GB FW: 4.3.x (varies)

Father Mande's Kodi 17.4
Information needed when you ask for HELP
| QNAP Links, Tutorials, etc. |Moogle's QNAP Faq | Plex NAS Compatibility Guide | QNAP Plex FAQ


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