foz111 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:13 pm
The problem is definitely on that backplane board not the main board, i say that will 100% certainty because i took a gamble and purchased a complete but none booting broken ts-253 pro... i removed the RAM and the backplane board and placed into my nas, now my nas is functioning correctly with both drives inserted and in raid 1, ...
That is definitely a good turn of things.
In the backplane disk 1 slot there is very little electronics for the power lines. Disk 1 is fed directly from the connector and the same lines feed the disk 2 via the Q4. Being able to get it working by feeding the disk 1 from an external power supply points strongly to the issues in disk 1 power circuitry. Now that I think it, because you were not powering the disk 2 externally, could it be that the power connector of the disk 1 on the failing back plane is somehow damaged? You could plug in a scrap disk to the slot1 of the failing back plane and measure the ground, 5V, and 12V line resistances from the card edge connector to the disk, see if they are OK. Also you could check all caps on the edge connector side of slot 1. Those are between ground and 5 and 12 V lines. But if they were faulty, they should affect also the disk 2.
Just wanted to share that I just had the very same problem on bays 3 and 4 of a TS-453A purchased brand new over 3 years ago where I had originally put 2 Seagate Enterprise NAS HDDs on bays 1 and 2 and a WD Red on bay 3 in RAID5 config, laid it down in a temp/humid controlled environment under high-quality online APC UPS, never moved or touched it anymore except 2 months ago when I had to replace the WD Red which failed, with a brand new Seagate Ironwolf Pro. Now bays 3 and 4 started to disconnect the newly arrived disk.
As I've written to a separate thread, submitting the case and logs to QNAP's support resulted in the verdict that it was a backplane fault, a repair expense estimate of about 300EUR + shipping costs to Netherlands, and the consequent spontaneous (from QNAP itself) suggestion to consider buying a NAS anew.
No trade-in program for a new unit, no discounts, warehouse swaps or whatever else. No nothing. Just spend about the same costs of a new NAS (but with only 6 months of warranty on the repair !), or throw the TS-453A away and give us again money for a new NAS.
I see on eBay quite a few none booting faulty ts-453 pro, maybe worth a punt as i did, i agree its annoying that qnap don't sell these backplanes or offer any type of exchange program.
Thanks foz, but then how do you know why the used QNAP doesn't boot ? What if, among the others, even the backplane is faulty ?
As of QNAP, this experience is teaching me a lot. I have another NAS, a Synology DS716+II, which is still working like charm so I've never had a need for Synology's after-sales (or after-warranty) support, so perhaps they would not be much different. Don't know, but I do know now how QNAP behaves, and I don't think I'll ever be caught again in such a situation with them.
yes that's the gamble... was just trying to offer cheap suggestion rather than an expensive paperweight, i don't know where you are in the world but i see on eBay UK a used TS-452 backplane, thought i would mention it https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QNAP-TS-453B ... ondition=4
Hello everyone, I am writing because two days ago a (5 months old disk on a 5 months old NAS) had the same exact 'Failed' then 'Disconnected' symptoms in bay 5. I have a TS-1277XU-RP NAS with 9 HGST He10 disks and 3 WD Red (I know, unsupported, but I was not in the position to buy other HGST when we got it).
I removed it and checked it with a quick SMART test and it seemed ok, so I plugged it in again: it was detected but again disconnected after 40''. Then I put in the cold spare that I had and it went ok (temperature issues?), so it started rebuilding the RAID 6, it has finished without issues.
Now my question is: how would I know if my unit have the possible faulty chip/backplane? Are they the same on all QNAP units? Sorry for the stupid question but I was not able to find the specific list of hardware for my unit.
After reading this thread I had put the FANs to performance mode...but I am honestly not happy just waiting to see if another disk get disconnected :/
The only other issue that I had with this NAS is that during the initial RAID building a disk (not the same one that was disconnected) had NCQ disabled, and another one now during rebuild...
vodka wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:21 pm
Hello everyone, I am writing because two days ago a (5 months old disk on a 5 months old NAS) had the same exact 'Failed' then 'Disconnected' symptoms in bay 5. I have a TS-1277XU-RP NAS with 9 HGST He10 disks and 3 WD Red (I know, unsupported, but I was not in the position to buy other HGST when we got it).
I removed it and checked it with a quick SMART test and it seemed ok, so I plugged it in again: it was detected but again disconnected after 40''. Then I put in the cold spare that I had and it went ok (temperature issues?), so it started rebuilding the RAID 6, it has finished without issues.
Now my question is: how would I know if my unit have the possible faulty chip/backplane? Are they the same on all QNAP units? Sorry for the stupid question but I was not able to find the specific list of hardware for my unit.
After reading this thread I had put the FANs to performance mode...but I am honestly not happy just waiting to see if another disk get disconnected :/
The only other issue that I had with this NAS is that during the initial RAID building a disk (not the same one that was disconnected) had NCQ disabled, and another one now during rebuild...
I guess one thing you could do is put the questionably failed disk into a desktop computer and run all the tests from the manufacturer's testing software. If it passes the long test, which can take up to 24 hours or more on big drives, then there's an almost certain chance it's a problem with the NAS instead of the drive.
Perhaps an early indicator would be to check the QNAP disk health SMART information and see what the Power_Cycle_Count is compared to the other drives. My good drive bays have readings around a couple dozen over the last 5 years, but the drives with the MOSFET issue are 3-4 times as much after they got kicked off the RAID. So if your new drive is racking up the Power_Cycle_Count numbers, and you aren't rebooting the NAS, then it's probably a problem with the bay.
Otherwise there isn't much I can think of other than waiting to see if the same bay fails again with your new drive.
Thank you
I am running right now the test with the tool downloaded from HGST (honestly it looks like an extended smart to me, I'll see if I find something different!).
Will check Power_Cycle_Count on the removed disk as soon as it finishes (yesterday I did not take notes )
The other disks vary: two are at 2/3 while the others at 12/14, since I never reboot the NAS this does not seem a favorable clue...
I, too, have a TS-431 which exhibited these symptoms. I performed the modification by shorting those pins. My TS-431 hasn’t failed again since. I did find a source for the NTMD6P02 MOSFET and purchased a couple. My question is whether or not the chip is truly bad when it fails or is it not receiving an appropriate gate signal to turn it on caused by something wrong upstream. There’s no easy way to scope that in situ and it’s very difficult to replace that smd without special tools. Does anybody know the answer to this?
Many thanks especially to the Kommisar and also to the others for the analysis and the proposed solution.
My TVS-463 (bought in 2016) had the same error with disk 4 last week (hard disks were replaced 04/2020). I swapped the disks among each other - but the error remained in disk 4. It is noticeable that disk 4 also makes the pumping noises of a starting hard disk.
The QNAP service quickly remotely inspected the device and confirmed the hardware defect of the backplane. Since the device is no longer under warranty, I should send the device from Germany to QNAP in the Netherlands (repair flat rate 480,- $ + postage) or ask dealers in Germany for spare parts or repair, since they are usually cheaper than the QNAP service. Unfortunately nobody had a backplane for the TVS-463 in stock (delivery time 3-4 weeks) and I was offered to buy a new NAS as an exchange with discount.
A friend (electronics specialist) checked the backplane and confirmed the statements from the forum. On the TVS-463 Disk 1+2 are directly connected to the voltage and Disk 3+4 are switched on via the MOSFET. He also suspects here that the circuit is only used to prevent all 4 disks from starting at the same time and drawing too much current. He has no other explanation for the MOSFET's, because all other hard disk functions are also possible with the Disk 1+2, which are directly supplied with voltage.
Also the backplane of the TVS-463 has solder pads (B1, B2, B3 and B4) on the Disk3+4 which bridge the MOSFET. We have therefore decided to solder the bridges B3+B4 for the Disk 4 first.
The Disk 4 was recognized immediately and the NAS is running without problems so far.
Warning: the possible risk of soldering the bridge in the NAS due to possible consequential damage must be weighed up and answered for by each individual!
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I've got he same problem with slot 4, so thanks to all who posted fixes for the problem. For now I'll try to bypass the mosfet to see if works, and to take a look to the model to order some of them.
This is a very big problem for units that costs like our QNAP NAS. Why QNAP is not selling the backplanes?, or at least replacing the damaged instead replace the whole unit?. I don't like the way they are working, so for sure my future NAS will not be Qnap again, because is a big problem taking into consideration that I've a degraded RAID5 for three days (with the risk of data loses if another drive dies), changing disk drives without knowing if maybe they are defective, is a software problem or maybe is the hardware. Thanks to dolbyman that sent me to this post to finaly find a workaround to the problem.
Just a follow-up on my 2 TS-431: 2 days ago we had a brief power surge, which I was able to observe on my solar system going up to 265V (nominal 230V). The UPS briefly went to battery, but it's a small off-line UPS, so the surge most likely got through. The NAS logged NCQ timeout errors and connection lost to disks 3 & 4. Obviously, that took out the RAID5. After a reboot all 4 disks were present and green, but the array was in error state. Recovery failed. I had to manually force it to re-assemble.
I have no idea if there is any connection to the bridged MOSFETs on the two drives. The 2nd NAS kept right on trucking.
My Qnap TVS-463 Disk 4 was dropping out with constant rebuilding and disk failing on and off for the last few months, and which is only 3 years old. I spoke with Qnap support, and they confirmed backplane fault and wanted £360 for a repair + shipping to the Netherlands. Errrr no.. are you having a laugh?. I had already done some digging through these forums and found the MOSFET regulators are prone to fail, so I confirmed the faulty component (which was quite easy to be honest with a haid dryer and a fan) and obtained replacement from RS components. I have since replaced the regulator on the back plane for drive 4 and all working fine and dandy again... for the grand total of 22p! Only draw back is you can only order them in batches of 25, so i have 24 left in case it gives up again. I am surprised that these components have no additional cooling though? they are rated at 20v - 8amp which for such a small package is quite impressive, but brings in to question their suitability for this application given the HDD spin up loads when the system first starts up or HDD is woken from sleep without any form of heat sink to dissipate the inital heat, and looking at the layout, I can see no way of adding any form of heat sink to any of them as the gap is about 8mm from the top of the MOSFET and the HDD. The only way I could find of providing better cooling way to upgrade the main 120mm fan for a Noctua Industrial 3000rpm fan, the standard fan tops out at 1700rpm, i have also spun the fan round so the air is drawn in from the back and exhausts out the front which seems to have help system temps ever so slightly and appears to be far more effective with air flow so hopefully all fixed for the time being.. with fingers crossed.
What has annoyed me the most with all this though, is the backplane card is basically just a PCIE 4x 4way HDD Interface adaptor... This should be a consumer replaceable part and from what I have seen with my current component repair, should be a readily available part, as it is relatively straight forward to replace by removing 8 - 10 screws. I can’t for the life of me understand why there is such a lack of available spare parts when some many of these Qnap systems are effectively modular? How many of these systems are being written off and scrapped due to the failure of such an inexpensive part? My drive 4 did unfortunately suffer from bad sectors after the Nas was repaired, but when you consider the SMART info for power cycles was at 1,200 + (the other 3 only about 30) due to the Nas power rails dropping under load on bay 4, so I’m really not surprised if was faulty. Western Digital happily replaced it under warranty though so all good (lucky as only 2 months left of Gtee).
I happy mine is all fixed and will now be a backup case in case our new TVS-472XT fails for any reason, but frustrated at the Qnap repair procedure and unnecessary repair cost.
Last edited by jackams9@aol.com on Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
jackams9@aol.com wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:58 am
What has annoyed me the most with all this though, is the backplane card is basically just a PCIE 4x 4way HDD Interface adaptor... This should be a consumer replaceable part and from what I have seen with my current component repair, should be a readily available part, as it is relatively straight forward to replace by removing 8 - 10 screws. I can’t for the life of me understand why there is such a lack of available spare parts when some many of these Qnap systems are effectively modular? How many of these systems are being written off and scrapped due to the failure of such an inexpensive part?
Working devices are not replaced (and bring fresh $$$), I am not saying QNAP put this part in there on purpose, but not selling replacement parts would fall under the above mentioned issue.
QNAP is not alone though, how many consumer brands are selling parts to end users ?
jackams9@aol.com wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:58 am
What has annoyed me the most with all this though, is the backplane card is basically just a PCIE 4x 4way HDD Interface adaptor... This should be a consumer replaceable part and from what I have seen with my current component repair, should be a readily available part, as it is relatively straight forward to replace by removing 8 - 10 screws. I can’t for the life of me understand why there is such a lack of available spare parts when some many of these Qnap systems are effectively modular? How many of these systems are being written off and scrapped due to the failure of such an inexpensive part?
Working devices are not replaced (and bring fresh $$$), I am not saying QNAP put this part in there on purpose, but not selling replacement parts would fall under the above mentioned issue.
QNAP is not alone though, how many consumer brands are selling parts to end users ?
I totaly agree this is the case, out price repairs to force people to buy more upto date products, but people will only do this so many times before they look for another brand. This whole issue has shown what a throw away world we now live in. Lets just hope thier current NAS enclosures have overcome this very common issue.
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