Smart Fan not so smart...

Questions about SNMP, Power, System, Logs, disk, & RAID.
Post Reply
peon2t
Starting out
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:04 am

Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by peon2t »

Hello

I can set the fan to "smart" or "manual".

When I set it to "smart" where it should control itself according to temperature I see that it doesn't. At least not in a way that I would consider smart.
Fan speed goes to minimum, disk temperatures rise under load to 55°C which in my opinion is too high. I actually even get temperature warning from the NAS at this point...

If I set it to "manual" on the other hand I have big ups and downs in temperature because the location of my NAS has temperature variantions of around 10°C and the load of the NAS causes additional variations.

Why can't the "smart" setting keep the harddrives to a reasonable temperature? It really doesn't look like rocket science to me... is this normal behaviour?
User avatar
Ericnepean
Know my way around
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:35 pm

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by Ericnepean »

I have noticed the same problems and have similar concerns, see my post viewtopic.php?f=25&t=133787

I raised ticket 994-21621 requesting a better thermal management solution and I got this response:
CA QNAP SUPPORT wrote: Hi Eric,
According to HQ.
Current SMART fan will increase fan speed while detect any one of the hard drive is over 50 degree Celsius.
Best Wishes
Y.C.
I had another ticket open regarding the manual fan speed control failing to set the fan speed after rebooting the NAS, this has been fixed in the latest QTS4.3.3.0299 and I think they have made some other improvements as well.

Since then I haven't been able to recreate the situation where my hard drive temperature goes to 58C (but I haven't had much time either). My Seagate Ironwolf 6TB run at about 49C in my TS251A when they are busy, which is noticeably hotter than the WD Red 5TB.

Since failure rate of electronic devices doubles every 10C, I'd be a lot happier if they ran cooler.

There are a number of temperature sensors in the QNAP NAS - there is the CPU temperature, a temperature sensor inside each hard drive, and a system temperature. You can see all of them in the system status report. I am not sure what the system temperature, but I observe that it is always the coldest temperature - I wonder if it is a temperature sensor mounted on the main circuit board.

If we can come up with an observation of the hard drive temperature being significantly about 50C and the fan speed is minimum, then that would be a good reason to raise a ticket.

There is also a fan control with user selected temperature thresholds - but I can't get this to increase the fans speed above minimum, even when the hard drive temperature is above all the thresholds. I wonder if this control is linked to system temperature rather than hard drive temperature.
Eric in Ottawa, Canada
TS-251A with 2x 6TB Seagate IronWolf in RAID 1
TR-004 with 4x 4TB HGST in RAID 5
DS923+ with 4x10GB WD Red in RAID 5
P3R
Guru
Posts: 13190
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by P3R »

Ericnepean wrote:My Seagate Ironwolf 6TB run at about 49C in my TS251A when they are busy, which is noticeably hotter than the WD Red 5TB.
Not at all surprising considering the difference in rpm. WD Red=5400 rpm, Seagate Ironwolf (6 TB and larger)=7200 rpm. WD Reds are known for running very cool (and silent) while my experience is that Seagate have in general been running slightly hotter than the competion, even when comparing apples to apples (7200 rpm disks).
Since failure rate of electronic devices doubles every 10C, I'd be a lot happier if they ran cooler.
As long as they are running within specifications (70°C for Seagate Ironwolf, 65°C for WD Red, and 90°C for the CPU in a TS-251A) I wouldn't worry about it.
I am not sure what the system temperature, but I observe that it is always the coldest temperature...
Again not surprising. The CPU and disks themselves are the primary sources of heat generation in the NAS so it's very natural that they show higher temperatures.
...I wonder if it is a temperature sensor mounted on the main circuit board.
Yes that's the most logical placement of it.
I wonder if this control is linked to system temperature rather than hard drive temperature.
As far as I know yes.

In general the very compact NAS cases (1-bay, 2-bay and some special 4-bays like for example the TS-453Bmini) are running hotter than larger chassies.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
P3R
Guru
Posts: 13190
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by P3R »

peon2t wrote:...disk temperatures rise under load to 55°C which in my opinion is too high. I actually even get temperature warning from the NAS at this point...
Yes if you configured the disk temperature alarm to 55°C or less it will warn you when that level is reached. The obvious solution would be to set the temperature alarm higher (but keep it within specifications for the disks in question).
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
User avatar
Ericnepean
Know my way around
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:35 pm

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by Ericnepean »

Per, Thanks for the confirmation and the data.
P3R wrote:
Ericnepean wrote:My Seagate Ironwolf 6TB run at about 49C in my TS251A when they are busy, which is noticeably hotter than the WD Red 5TB.
Not at all surprising considering the difference in rpm. WD Red=5400 rpm, Seagate Ironwolf (6 TB and larger)=7200 rpm. WD Reds are known for running very cool (and silent) while my experience is that Seagate have in general been running slightly hotter than the competion, even when comparing apples to apples (7200 rpm disks).
Since failure rate of electronic devices doubles every 10C, I'd be a lot happier if they ran cooler.
As long as they are running within specifications (70°C for Seagate Ironwolf, 65°C for WD Red, and 90°C for the CPU in a TS-251A) I wouldn't worry about it.
Arrhenius's relation still holds, even if the drive designer has raised the max temperature threshold by 5C.
It's my drives, and my data we are protecting, each of which are worth more than the QNAP enclosure. :)
I have set the fan to 50%, which is quiet enough and keeps the idle temperature of the drives at 35C.
I am not sure what the system temperature, but I observe that it is always the coldest temperature...
Again not surprising. The CPU and disks themselves are the primary sources of heat generation in the NAS so it's very natural that they show higher temperatures.
...I wonder if it is a temperature sensor mounted on the main circuit board.
Yes that's the most logical placement of it.
I wonder if this control is linked to system temperature rather than hard drive temperature.
As far as I know yes.
Then I don't see how it's sensible to connect the system thermal management to the sensor which probably has the greatest margin in the system.
In general the very compact NAS cases (1-bay, 2-bay and some special 4-bays like for example the TS-453Bmini) are running hotter than larger chassies.
Eric in Ottawa, Canada
TS-251A with 2x 6TB Seagate IronWolf in RAID 1
TR-004 with 4x 4TB HGST in RAID 5
DS923+ with 4x10GB WD Red in RAID 5
peon2t
Starting out
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:04 am

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by peon2t »

P3R wrote: Yes if you configured the disk temperature alarm to 55°C or less it will warn you when that level is reached. The obvious solution would be to set the temperature alarm higher (but keep it within specifications for the disks in question).
I think 55°C is the default in a QNAP for HDD-Temperature warning. At least I can't remember having changed it.

Also I'm not sure if "disk specifications" are a good orientation guide here.
My primary goal isn't to keep the disks in an envirnoment that meets their specifications but to keep them in an environment that provides best conditions for a long life.
Now I can imagine that keeping the drives closer to the "border" of specification isn't going to let them last as long as keeping them to the "center" of specification.
P3R
Guru
Posts: 13190
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by P3R »

Ericnepean wrote:I have set the fan to 50%, which is quiet enough and keeps the idle temperature of the drives at 35C.
It's quiet enough for you that's very focused on keeping low temperatures but may be far too loud for anyone that instead have a hangup on sound. I'm not particularly sensitive but a fan speed of 50 % is pretty loud on my NASes.

The factory default (Smart Fan) is best tuned to keep the hardware within factory recommended specifications (which it seem to do) and with sound as low as possible. Then those that accept a louder NAS can tune their fans to a higher setting. It would be more dangerous to have a loud default setting and allow users to tune their fans down from the kind of rpms that you and peon2t prefer.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
P3R
Guru
Posts: 13190
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by P3R »

peon2t wrote:I think 55°C is the default in a QNAP for HDD-Temperature warning.
Yes it is but apparently you accepted that default. 55°C is a middle of the road setting that may or may not be applicable depending on the disks used and the climate where the NAS is deployed. It doesn't automatically mean there's something wrong if you get a temperature alarm.
I'm not sure if "disk specifications" are a good orientation guide here.
I'm pretty sure the manufacturer of the disks have a clue about what are acceptable temperatures for the products they make. If higher temperatures killed disks, they would suffer economically because of all the warranty claims and the badwill so they would lower the specifications.
My primary goal isn't to keep the disks in an envirnoment that meets their specifications but to keep them in an environment that provides best conditions for a long life.
That may be your goal but since it isn't the same as everyone elses goal it can't really be the Smart Fan setting, as then all those very sensitive to fan noise (I would think there are much more of them) would complain wildly.

Since you and Eric want to keep your disks very cool, you have to tune it manually like Eric did.

As you seem not to like the big variations of the Self-defined temperature setting, I think you should try the setting where you can manually adjust the fan speed:
Manual_fan_speed.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
peon2t
Starting out
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:04 am

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by peon2t »

It seems like I have to explain my concern more clearly:

I'd like to have my disks between 35 and 45°C because there are studies which prompt that this is the temperature range that statistically promises the longest durability of the HDDs.

Now if I just set the fan manually to maximum this will bring my disks to temperatures that are too low - at least if they're idle and the temperatures in the room where the NAS is located are low (the room temperatures range between about 13 and 27°C)

If on the other hand I set the fan to "smart" it will let the disk go to 55°C and more.

Both is not what I want because as I said the studies show that too low and too high temperatures correlate with higher failure rates.

Right now the manual setting "medium" seems most ideal to keep the balance I wish but I'd prefer if there would be a "smart" setting where I could give the temperature range and the fan then would adjust itself to reach this temperature range. Because obviously the current "smart" setting is fine with HDD temperatures of 55°C and higher.

(Fan noise isn't relevant in my case because my NAS is in a place where noone can hear it anyway.)
P3R
Guru
Posts: 13190
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by P3R »

peon2t wrote:I'd like to have my disks between 35 and 45°C because there are studies which prompt that this is the temperature range that statistically promises the longest durability of the HDDs.
I would be interested to read them. What studies and where can we find them?
Right now the manual setting "medium" seems most ideal to keep the balance I wish but I'd prefer if there would be a "smart" setting where I could give the temperature range and the fan then would adjust itself to reach this temperature range.
Then go ahead and request that improvement from Qnap.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
User avatar
Ericnepean
Know my way around
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:35 pm

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by Ericnepean »

P3R wrote: ......
peon2t wrote:My primary goal isn't to keep the disks in an envirnoment that meets their specifications but to keep them in an environment that provides best conditions for a long life.
That may be your goal but since it isn't the same as everyone elses goal it can't really be the Smart Fan setting, as then all those very sensitive to fan noise (I would think there are much more of them) would complain wildly.

Since you and Eric want to keep your disks very cool, you have to tune it manually like Eric did.

As you seem not to like the big variations of the Self-defined temperature setting, I think you should try the setting where you can manually adjust the fan speed:
Manual_fan_speed.jpg
I agree the smart fan mode meets the need for most people; my comments were not aimed at changing this mode, I was wondering if it was actually working for someone. I see that QNAP has now added three variants to this setting - Performance, Normal and Quiet. I appreciate the effort they have put in to this but I wonder if these settings working.
I would expect that at least in performance mode the fan would run more often or perhaps faster than before, but no matter how hot my hard drive gets the fan stays at minimum speed.

I had hopes that the Self-defined temperature setting would help control the drive temperature, but even with the thresholds set to 35C and 45C, the fan doesn't run's at minimum speed even with the drive temperature approach 60C. I think thats because this mode only monitors system temperature and not drive temperature. This is what I hope I can get QNAP to change.

So the only alternative is to set the fan speed manually, and if the fan noise bothers me (ususally it doesn't) switch it over to Smart Fan, which apparently keeps the fan speed at minimum not matter what.

Its not that I prefer manual mode and noise, but it seems to be the only mode that is capable of increasing the fan speed above about 1000 RPM.
Eric in Ottawa, Canada
TS-251A with 2x 6TB Seagate IronWolf in RAID 1
TR-004 with 4x 4TB HGST in RAID 5
DS923+ with 4x10GB WD Red in RAID 5
P3R
Guru
Posts: 13190
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by P3R »

Ericnepean wrote:I see that QNAP has now added three variants to this setting - Performance, Normal and Quiet. I appreciate the effort they have put in to this but I wonder if these settings working.
I would expect that at least in performance mode the fan would run more often...
I wouldn't. I would expect it to ramp up faster though when temperature increases and yes possibly run slightly faster initially.
I think thats because this mode only monitors system temperature and not drive temperature.
Yes as far as I know that have always been the case.

But as you were told now apparently with the addition of
CA QNAP SUPPORT wrote: Hi Eric,
According to HQ.
Current SMART fan will increase fan speed while detect any one of the hard drive is over 50 degree Celsius.
Best Wishes
Y.C.
That fan speed increase however is probably too late and too little for the disk temperatures that you and peon2t want to achieve.
This is what I hope I can get QNAP to change.
A feature request directly to Qnap is the recommended approach.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
peon2t
Starting out
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:04 am

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by peon2t »

P3R wrote:
peon2t wrote:I'd like to have my disks between 35 and 45°C because there are studies which prompt that this is the temperature range that statistically promises the longest durability of the HDDs.
I would be interested to read them. What studies and where can we find them?
One of the was done by Google. I think if you search for "google harddrive study" or something like this you should find it.

(SInce Google doesn't keep it's drives at more than 50°C the study doesn't show how much the failure rates increase for temperatures in the range of 55°C or even more. But we're seeing an increase in disk failure for temperatures above 45°C so I assume it won't get better if they get even warmer. So if Google writes about "higher ends of temperature range" they actually mean valuse of more than 40°C because they keep most of their drives at around 30°C.)
Now that I know that letting Harddisk go to 55°C and more is actually the intended behaviour of the software I'll do this.
But I wasn't sure if it's maybe a bug limited to my NAS since there have been other such "limited" bugs.
User avatar
Ericnepean
Know my way around
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:35 pm

Re: Smart Fan not so smart...

Post by Ericnepean »

peon2t wrote:
P3R wrote:
peon2t wrote:I'd like to have my disks between 35 and 45°C because there are studies which prompt that this is the temperature range that statistically promises the longest durability of the HDDs.
I would be interested to read them. What studies and where can we find them?
One of the was done by Google. I think if you search for "google harddrive study" or something like this you should find it.

(SInce Google doesn't keep it's drives at more than 50°C the study doesn't show how much the failure rates increase for temperatures in the range of 55°C or even more. But we're seeing an increase in disk failure for temperatures above 45°C so I assume it won't get better if they get even warmer. So if Google writes about "higher ends of temperature range" they actually mean valuse of more than 40°C because they keep most of their drives at around 30°C.)
Never mind Google. In the early part of my career, I was a support engineer in a Telecoms manufacturing plant. It was quite plain to see that when certain systems (laser trimmers and so forth) were running at a higher temperature they required more frequent repair, even though we did not run them near the temperature limits of the manufacturer.

Later I designed ground station equipment for various military and satellite communications systems - when you do the reliability (MTBF) estimates you can sse the direct influence of operating temperature on failure rate. Any relaibility estimation framework or toolset will give the relationship. A fundamental relationship is the Arrhenius relation, a complicated bit of math (see wikipedia) that essentially states that chemical processes (which includes the processes that determine aging and failure) double in speed every 10C increase in temperature.

Now I work for a sizeable Swedish Telecom, designing high power radios for mobile base stations. We have a few million radios installed around the world. By observation you can see that a higher rate of return is associated with higher operating temperatures. It's one of the first things we check when a unit is returned.
Now that I know that letting Harddisk go to 55°C and more is actually the intended behaviour of the software I'll do this.
But I wasn't sure if it's maybe a bug limited to my NAS since there have been other such "limited" bugs.
It's been good to kick around some ideas in the forum - I will take little time to find a way to heat up my drives a bit and see haoe the cooling system really respond, and then likeely I will raise another ticket.
Eric in Ottawa, Canada
TS-251A with 2x 6TB Seagate IronWolf in RAID 1
TR-004 with 4x 4TB HGST in RAID 5
DS923+ with 4x10GB WD Red in RAID 5
Post Reply

Return to “System & Disk Volume Management”