Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

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piizei
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Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by piizei » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:51 am

I started using TS-451+ with two 4GB disks with the purpose to expand later when more space is needed. I did notice that it was possible to migrate from RAID 1 to RAID 5, and without further thought I created RAID 1 group for the two disks. Now that I wanted to extend with another 4GB disk I realized that the migration from RAID 1 to RAID 5 would mean losing all the data on the orginal volume (vol1). Not good.

Browsing through QNAP forums, manuals and the QNAP tools and having experience on how unrelieable many of the QNAP backup and sync tools are, it seemed that Snapshot replica would be the best way to go. The question is, would the following work without having to reinstall anything and without losing any data that are on the original volume (vol1).

1. insert the 3rd 4GB disk
2. create new storage pool (pool2) for disk3
3. create new thick volume on pool2 (vol2)
4. take snapshot from vol1 (snapshot and replica tool)
5. replicate the snapshot to vol2 (snapshot and replica tool)
6. migrate the original RAID 1 into RAID 5 losing all the data on vol1
7. restore the snapshot from vol2 into vol1 (haven't looked into this part yet)
8. add the 3rd disk into the new RAID 5 group losing all the data including the snapshot replica

Would this work? Is there a better way to do this?

Thanks.

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MrVideo
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by MrVideo » Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:48 am

piizei wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:51 am
I started using TS-451+ with two 4GB disks with the purpose to expand later when more space is needed. I did notice that it was possible to migrate from RAID 1 to RAID 5, and without further thought I created RAID 1 group for the two disks. Now that I wanted to extend with another 4GB disk I realized that the migration from RAID 1 to RAID 5 would mean losing all the data on the orginal volume (vol1). Not good.
Wrong. Going from RAID1 to RAID5 does not result in a loss of your data. RTFM carefully.
QTS 4.1.n/4.2.n/4.3.n MANUAL
Submit QNAP Support Ticket - QNAP Tutorials, FAQs, Downloads, Wiki - Product Support Status - Moogle's QNAP FAQ help V2
When you ask a question, please include the following
(Thanks to Toxic17 for the links)
QNAP md_checker nasreport (release 20180525)
===============================
Model: TS-869L -- RAM: 3G -- FW: QTS 4.1.4 Build 20150522 (used for data storage)
WD60EFRX-68L0BN1(x1)/68MYMN1(x7) Red HDDs -- RAID6: 8x6TB -- Cold spare: 1x6TB
Entware
===============================
Model: TS-451A -- RAM: 2G -- FW: QTS 4.2.3 Build 20170213 (used as a video server)
WL3000GSA6472(x3) White label NAS HDDs -- RAID5: 3x3TB
Entware -- MyKodi 17.3 (default is Kodi 16)
===============================
My 2017 Total Solar Eclipse Photos

piizei
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by piizei » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:01 am

I guess this is then outdated or instructions with warning rather misleading?

http://docs.qnap.com/nas/QTS4.3.4/en/GU ... B255C.html

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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by OneCD » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:33 am

The manual could be worded a little better. What it means is only data on the drive about to be added to the array will be deleted.

Data already in the array is retained.

But the standard advice is to always ensure you have a complete and current backup of your NAS data on external media before attempting a complex operation like RAID migration. Things can and do go wrong. Trying to recover data after a crash may be impossible. ;)

production NAS: TS-569 Pro with Debian 9.8 'Stretch' (power on/off times are < 1 minute).
backup NAS: TS-559 Pro+ with QTS 4.2.6 #20181227

one.cd.only@gmail.com

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piizei
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by piizei » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:00 am

So the safe or safish way to do it without external NAS would be?

1. insert the 3rd 4GB disk
2. create new storage pool (pool2) for disk3
3. create new thick volume on pool2 (vol2)
4. take snapshot from vol1 (snapshot and replica tool)
5. replicate the snapshot to vol2 (snapshot and replica tool)
6. migrate the original RAID 1 into RAID 5
7. add the 3rd disk into the new RAID 5 group

This way I would at least have a snapshot on a separate disk/volume if the migration goes wrong

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Don
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by Don » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:20 am

No. Read the manual again. If you are running 4.3.5 read the 4.3.5 manual.
Read the Online Manuals and use the forum search feature before posting.

It is a recommended to use RAID and have external backups. RAID will protect you from disk failure, keep your system running, and data accessible while the disk is replaced and the RAID rebuilt. Backups will allow you to recover data that is lost or corrupted, or from system failure. One does not replace the other.

Submit bugs and feature requests to QNAP via their Helpdesk app.

NAS: TVS-882BR | F/W: 4.3.6.0805 | 40GB | 2 x M.2 SATA RAID 1 (System/VMs) | 4 x M.2 NMVe QM2-4P-384A RAID 5 (Cache) | 5 x 4TB HDD RAID 6 (Data) | 1 x Blu-ray
NAS: TVS-663 | F/W: 4.3.6.0883 | 16GB | 2 x M.2 NMVe QM2-2P RAID 1 (Cache) | 4 x 4TB RAID 5
Apps: Boinc, Squid, DNSMasq, PLEX, iDrive, QVPN, QLMS, MP3fs, HBS, Entware, DLstation, +others

Thisisnotmyname
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by Thisisnotmyname » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:38 am

piizei wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:00 am
So the safe or safish way to do it without external NAS would be?

1. insert the 3rd 4GB disk
2. create new storage pool (pool2) for disk3
3. create new thick volume on pool2 (vol2)
4. take snapshot from vol1 (snapshot and replica tool)
5. replicate the snapshot to vol2 (snapshot and replica tool)
6. migrate the original RAID 1 into RAID 5
7. add the 3rd disk into the new RAID 5 group

This way I would at least have a snapshot on a separate disk/volume if the migration goes wrong


no, you don't want to create a new pool, you want to migrate RAID levels. Here's the section you'll want to take a look at...

http://docs.qnap.com/nas/4.3/cat2/en/in ... groups.htm

scroll down to "Migrating RAID Configuration"

piizei
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by piizei » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:25 am

Why would I not want to take a snapshot from the original volume before the migration? The new pool was for the temporary snapshot replica. If the migration from RAID1 to RAID5 would somehow go wrong, I would at least have a backup. If it went well, then I will add the 3rd drive to the newly migrated RAID5 and throw away the snapshot replica.
Thisisnotmyname wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:38 am
piizei wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:00 am
So the safe or safish way to do it without external NAS would be?

1. insert the 3rd 4GB disk
2. create new storage pool (pool2) for disk3
3. create new thick volume on pool2 (vol2)
4. take snapshot from vol1 (snapshot and replica tool)
5. replicate the snapshot to vol2 (snapshot and replica tool)
6. migrate the original RAID 1 into RAID 5
7. add the 3rd disk into the new RAID 5 group

This way I would at least have a snapshot on a separate disk/volume if the migration goes wrong


no, you don't want to create a new pool, you want to migrate RAID levels. Here's the section you'll want to take a look at...

http://docs.qnap.com/nas/4.3/cat2/en/in ... groups.htm

scroll down to "Migrating RAID Configuration"

piizei
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by piizei » Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:51 pm

My bad. I somehow got the picture that you could migrate from RAID1 to RAID5 without adding disks, and then add a disk.

To people who have the time to comment on forum posts "RTFM", maybe consider using that time for something else. The manuals are often ambiguous and when doing operations that might cause data loss, people often want to make sure they have understood correctly.

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MrVideo
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by MrVideo » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:48 am

We say to read the manual because too many posters ask the same questions. It seems that no one searches the forum or reads the manual. If you have read the manual, then post the question and indicate the section of the manual that confuses you.

As for going from RAID1 to RAID5, you obviously didn't understand the concept of RAID5 (or RAID in general), which requires a minimum of three discs. Plus, you can never migrate from one RAID to another with the installed discs. The migration needs space to work with. So, if you had a four-disc RAID5 and wanted to go to RAID6 with that four-disc RAID5, you could not.

Not only that, but I do not see anywhere in your original post that you wanted to go to RAID5 before adding the 3rd disc. The way it was worded was that you were going to add the 3rd disc and then start the migration. That would have prompted completely different responses.
QTS 4.1.n/4.2.n/4.3.n MANUAL
Submit QNAP Support Ticket - QNAP Tutorials, FAQs, Downloads, Wiki - Product Support Status - Moogle's QNAP FAQ help V2
When you ask a question, please include the following
(Thanks to Toxic17 for the links)
QNAP md_checker nasreport (release 20180525)
===============================
Model: TS-869L -- RAM: 3G -- FW: QTS 4.1.4 Build 20150522 (used for data storage)
WD60EFRX-68L0BN1(x1)/68MYMN1(x7) Red HDDs -- RAID6: 8x6TB -- Cold spare: 1x6TB
Entware
===============================
Model: TS-451A -- RAM: 2G -- FW: QTS 4.2.3 Build 20170213 (used as a video server)
WL3000GSA6472(x3) White label NAS HDDs -- RAID5: 3x3TB
Entware -- MyKodi 17.3 (default is Kodi 16)
===============================
My 2017 Total Solar Eclipse Photos

Thisisnotmyname
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by Thisisnotmyname » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:09 am

MrVideo wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:48 am
We say to read the manual because too many posters ask the same questions. It seems that no one searches the forum or reads the manual. If you have read the manual, then post the question and indicate the section of the manual that confuses you.

Not aimed specifically at you MrVideo but I've been noticing a lot of this and this post gives me an opportunity to speak about what I'm perceiving.

Being fairly new here I've noticed the same thing he did. It's incredibly off-putting. Most consumer products (which many/most of QNAP's line is) have refined user interfaces to the point that the most basic functions are highly intuitive. You can pick up an iPhone and never read a manual. You can start using Windows without reading a manual. You can set up a home router without cracking a book. I don't think it's unreasonable that someone ask a question in a public forum without having first read the QTS manual. Rather, I would say it is up to forum members, if they feel that is somehow lazy, to just not respond if they feel their time too valuable to spend helping out that type of new user rather than try to demonstrate some kind of virtue signaling by ridiculing the user for not having done enough research. To do otherwise is really just - to be blunt - being a jerk.

As a new user of these forums it gives me the impression that there's a core group of users and they don't want anyone to join unless they adhere to some arbitrary standard to participate. It drives away good people who could become contributing members of the community themselves. Cases in point...

https://www.reddit.com/r/qnap/comments/ ... of_wisdom/ (comment by kuppajava)
https://ridwankhan.com/im-never-buying- ... dc2f529440 (few paragraphs down the poster talks specifically about the community)
https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comme ... ke_for_me/ (original poster and several responses)

I don't expect much out of an online public forum but this one is striking in how hostile it is to new people. It reflects poorly on QNAP and I'm surprised they haven't stepped in.

edit to add: a lot of people consider an online forum to be just as much a resource (and researching) as a manual. If they've attempted something themselves and then reach out to a community for help that's fine in my book. Don't like it, don't answer.

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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by dolbyman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:30 am

@Thisisnotyourname

Problem is while a forum should absolutely be a resource to look for problems, it does not help (and is a pet peeve of mine) if people
a) open a new thread for topics that have been discusses dozen to hundreds of times (RAM questions,migration questions,volume expansion,etc)
b) reply to ago(10 years+) old threads that are not even discussing the same base platform of QTS OS anymore, adding a #meetoo (no other text) is also not helpful

And remember QNAP treats these forums basically as free helpdesk, with very little interaction from them within presales and few new features (Iot,QVR,etc), the rest is unmoderated for (what I presume) cost savings.
I would love for QNAP to participate in this forum more, but I have low hopes for this.

Thisisnotmyname
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by Thisisnotmyname » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:39 am

dolbyman wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:30 am
@Thisisnotyourname

Problem is while a forum should absolutely be a resource to look for problems, it does not help (and is a pet peeve of mine) if people
a) open a new thread for topics that have been discusses dozen to hundreds of times (RAM questions,migration questions,volume expansion,etc)
b) reply to ago(10 years+) old threads that are not even discussing the same base platform of QTS OS anymore, adding a #meetoo (no other text) is also not helpful

And remember QNAP treats these forums basically as free helpdesk, with very little interaction from them within presales and few new features (Iot,QVR,etc), the rest is unmoderated for (what I presume) cost savings.
I would love for QNAP to participate in this forum more, but I have low hopes for this.
I can appreciate that. And I've seen you give a lot of great direction from your own uncompensated time. I'd just ask that everyone remember they were once a noob too and when you are reaching out to a community about a frustrating problem the last thing in the world you want to hear is "RTFM." For people who contribute frequently I can understand seeing the same question repeatedly is also annoying but a little more patience with new users can result in more of them sticking around and sharing the load for the inevitable time that same question gets asked again.

My two cents anyway.

And doesn't surprise me that QNAP isn't lifting a finger, they seem to like to distance themselves as much as possible. If it weren't for a couple key features I wanted that Synology didn't support I would have gone that direction given what I'd heard about their product and support. Generally I'd rather pay a premium and know I will very well supported than have a better product value but have the manufacturer stay arms length to maintain their slim(mer) margins. That seems to be QNAP's business model.

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MrVideo
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by MrVideo » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:54 am

A NAS, unlike lots of other devices, is more complicated than turning on a M$ computer and logging in. It requires careful thought in setting it up for the user's particular needs. As such, reading the manual is a must. To say that not reading a manual for anything you buy is misguided and does the user a great disservice. Therefore, if upon reading the manual one is still clueless, then ask on the forum and point out the section of the manual that is leaving you clueless.

To not read a manual and to go on a forum and basically say: "be my manual" is doing a disservice to those who do help others. Helping others who at least try is better than those who want the world without lifting a finger.
QTS 4.1.n/4.2.n/4.3.n MANUAL
Submit QNAP Support Ticket - QNAP Tutorials, FAQs, Downloads, Wiki - Product Support Status - Moogle's QNAP FAQ help V2
When you ask a question, please include the following
(Thanks to Toxic17 for the links)
QNAP md_checker nasreport (release 20180525)
===============================
Model: TS-869L -- RAM: 3G -- FW: QTS 4.1.4 Build 20150522 (used for data storage)
WD60EFRX-68L0BN1(x1)/68MYMN1(x7) Red HDDs -- RAID6: 8x6TB -- Cold spare: 1x6TB
Entware
===============================
Model: TS-451A -- RAM: 2G -- FW: QTS 4.2.3 Build 20170213 (used as a video server)
WL3000GSA6472(x3) White label NAS HDDs -- RAID5: 3x3TB
Entware -- MyKodi 17.3 (default is Kodi 16)
===============================
My 2017 Total Solar Eclipse Photos

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Don
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Re: Migrating from RAID1 to RAID5 without losing any data

Post by Don » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:59 am

@Thisisnotyourname

I have been providing (free) support on this community forum for over 10 years. I have to agree with dolbyman and MrVideo. People should read the manual and if they are confused or don't understand something they can point to the section of the manual and community members can clarify. To expect the community to answer questions that are clearly defined/documented in the manual or have already been answered many times in the forum because they are too lazy to read the manual or search the forum is unreasonable. I volunteer my time, as I'm sure others do, to help people with real problems and not to read the manual to them. It gets very tiring/frustrating answering the same documented/answered questions over and over again.

Feel free to pick up the slack and start answering all of the newbie questions. The community would welcome your assistance.
Read the Online Manuals and use the forum search feature before posting.

It is a recommended to use RAID and have external backups. RAID will protect you from disk failure, keep your system running, and data accessible while the disk is replaced and the RAID rebuilt. Backups will allow you to recover data that is lost or corrupted, or from system failure. One does not replace the other.

Submit bugs and feature requests to QNAP via their Helpdesk app.

NAS: TVS-882BR | F/W: 4.3.6.0805 | 40GB | 2 x M.2 SATA RAID 1 (System/VMs) | 4 x M.2 NMVe QM2-4P-384A RAID 5 (Cache) | 5 x 4TB HDD RAID 6 (Data) | 1 x Blu-ray
NAS: TVS-663 | F/W: 4.3.6.0883 | 16GB | 2 x M.2 NMVe QM2-2P RAID 1 (Cache) | 4 x 4TB RAID 5
Apps: Boinc, Squid, DNSMasq, PLEX, iDrive, QVPN, QLMS, MP3fs, HBS, Entware, DLstation, +others

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