Container Station loss of functionality

vmsman
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Container Station loss of functionality

Post by vmsman »

This morning I took the Update to Container Station to v2.4.0.2316.
new CS.png
The first message I receive is that LXC container support ends in a few months. This is completely unacceptable.
end of support.png
The next issue is that QNAP encourages users to migrate to LXD containers, yet all of the container options in the "create" menu of container station are Docker only. Docker is application virtualization only and not OS virtualization like LXC. Virtual machines in Virtualization Station are not an alternative because they virtualize the hardware in addition to the OS and are also and are a huge resource drain.

All of the LXC options in the "create" are gone and their are no options to create LXD containers. This is a serious downgrade and elimination of functionality.

In addition, the primary reason for the support ticket that I submitted several months ago was to support VLANs in container station. After upgrading my lab NAS VMSFog, I created two VLANs in network and virtual switch pointing to two VLANs on my network. This worked. You will notice that the VLAN adapters correctly got the right addresses from my network infrastructure.
VLANS.png
When trying to assign an existing container to one of the new VLANs in network and virtual switch, I ran into a problem. Although this version of container station can still see my adapters unlike the last container station version. it gives me only the ability to connect to Adapter 3 and defaults to the address range of the first VLAN I created on the adapter. It should allow me to bind to either VLAN. This was the original reason for my support ticket and this was ignored.
NO VLANS.png
The elimination of LXC containers with no replacement doesn't work. I have amassed a library of LXC container images as starting points to build applications. For example, "Ubuntu with LAMP stack", "Ubuntu with Docker", and "Ubuntu with MariaDB" as a few examples. These are the starting points for installing applications. Docker is easy to install apps, but suffers from the fact that you have to rebuild the docker container from scratch anytime a new Docker instance for that app is released. This is because Docker images are pretty much readonly once deployed. Non-volatile data can be mounted outside the Docker container for persistence but changes to the container itself cannot be made which is why I use LXC containers for more complex applications.

Bottom line is the new container station still does not support VLANs as promised and the creation of new LXC containers is gone from the new container station and there is no option to create new LXD containers going forward. Container Station has been rendered functionally dead in my view.
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vmsman
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by vmsman »

I have also discovered that after the upgrade of container station to 2.4.2316, that QVR Pro has broken. QVR Pro uses container station as a dependency.
new CS.png
Following the update, and despite restarting QVR Pro and Container Station, the hosted cameras in QVR Pro are stuck in the "connecting" state.
QVR Pro breakage.png
These patches need to be more thoroughly tested. I logged the initial ticket on the container station issue on May 6, 2021 and this new version creates brand new problems without fixing the old ones.
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oyvindo
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by oyvindo »

Perhaps a less disastrous issue for most people, but nevertheless extremely annoying for myself, is that QNAP changed the color scheme in the console area of Container Station. It used to be dark text on a white background. Now they have introduced a dark scheme. Consequently, error messages thrown by the container comes out as dark red text on a black background, and it is impossible for me to read any of it because I have reduced eye sight. There are lots of theory on how to design a GUI using color combinations that are known to work well. Dark red on black is NOT recommended!
I am astound that QNAP seems to completely ignore established theory and allows developers to throw in design elements completely without testing and compliance.
Paragraph §18 in the Equality and Anti-Discrimination Act and the regulations that legislate Universal Design of information and communication technology (ICT) contains definitions and requirements ratified by the European Community (EU) as how to design graphical User Interfaces so that reading is optimized for people with reduced eye sight. (https://www.uutilsynet.no/english/regulations/278)
It doesn't seem like QNAP is aware of the term Universal Design (UD).

Can you read this text?

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Paul Preney
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by Paul Preney »

Similarly I upgraded this morning to version 2.4.0.2316 (2021/07/06) and received the message that LXC ends by the end of 2021 + no new LXC containers can be created yet none of this was in the release notes (or I never would have upgraded). Moreover, there is no provided upgrade path for LXC containers: everything is Docker.

Unfortunately this appears to be consistent with QNAP: add tools, etc. and then remove them later with no path forward for users. Next time might be the AI stuff they allow people to use, etc., etc. For me, this leads to the conclusion that QNAP devices should ONLY be used as a NAS devices and absolutely nothing else since QNAP's value-added tools are all whimsy at best. Next time could well be Docker, Virtualization Station, etc., etc. I will be migrating my LXC containers to other devices that I fully control and maintain / have sane support with solution paths should things be retired.

So much for having a couple of lightweight things run on the NAS. Eliminating dependencies on QNAP devices will be liberating.
Last edited by Paul Preney on Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BigRedBrent
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by BigRedBrent »

I don't even know what this means for me. All I know is that I have and use "Xeams" that needs container station, and I also have a DOCKER container installed called "transmission-openvpn". If those get broken by this change, I will be pi$$ed. :/
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vmsman
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by vmsman »

I have made some modest progress in trying to understand where the container station functionality has changed. Quite by accident, I discovered that if you create a new container with the template "ubuntu-desktop-lxde-vnc-1", it appears that you get an LXDE terminal although it is clearly marked as a DOCKER container.
new container station.png
In the screenshot you can see that I have an LXC container and also a container based on the "ubuntu-desktop-lxde-vnc-1" template. I presume that since it has "lxde" in the name that it is an LXDE container. Note that container station still says that it is a Docker container.
lxde container.png
So, I started a bash shell from the "terminal" option on this screen and just did a sudo apt update and a sudo apt upgrade and nothing else. The pictured console throws errors restarting NginX once per second. Apparently NginX is a part of this container. So, the one LXD template that I found is not even properly working with zero changes to it.
lxd image server.png
I did a search for "LXD" in the creation screen for Container Station and I noticed a new LXD image server tab in the screen, but nothing is ever displayed in it.

This release is at best "pre-alpha". I use LXC containers to do application installations like I would on a bare metal machine or VM. The advantage of the LXC was a very small resource utilization footprint since LXC containers virtualize the operating system but not the hardware. I used LXC for the majority of my applications because LXC is upgradable in terms of the applications loaded on it and Docker applications must be entirely rebuilt in order to upgrade application versions unless the author of the container has externally mounted the entire application outside the container so that it can be upgraded. Overall, LXC containers fit the bill for lean, efficient virtualized application containers.

On my TS-1277 I have at least 25 complex application installations that are LXC. I suspect that the majority of your userbase has the same configuration in their container station. For me, container station is a good 50% of the reason to own a QNAP NAS. I have LXC containers for a Discourse forum, two phpBB bulletin boards, a Bitwarden server, a NextCloud Server, an Onlyoffice document server that talks to the NextCloud Server, a Jitsi Meet server, an Apache Guacamole server, a Mesh Central server, a "Remotely" server, a Jellyfin server, two Pi-hole servers, an unbound server the Pi-holes talk to, a Jellyfin server, a Shinobi NVR server and a Zulip chat server just o mention just a few.

It is a complete show stopper to eliminate LXC containers, especially in a maintenance release. I expected to see VLANs fixed for Container Station since this release was supposed to address this problem from my early May help ticket.
and what I got was a new container station telling me that LXC was obsolete and VLANs were not even addressed and are still broken.

I think the user community can tell that I am an advanced user that has leveraged the real power of container station and to remove a major part of its functionality without testing and verifying a migration path qill do irreparable damage to the QNAP brand name. I will be happy to explain more to anyone here who is interested.
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oyvindo
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by oyvindo »

LXC, LXDE, LXD..... Can someone please explain the difference?
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vmsman
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by vmsman »

@oyvindo, Yes, I can explain. Come over and join my Discourse server and read my blog on containerization and feel free to comment.

https://discussion.scottibyte.com/t/wha ... ontainers/
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oyvindo
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by oyvindo »

vmsman wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:20 am Come over and join my Discourse server and read my blog on containerization and feel free to comment.
Nice write-up, but I didn't find LXDE mentioned?
And I still wonder how QNAP can abandon LXC while recommending LXD when you say LXD depend on LXC? That to me, sounds like a contradiction?
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OneCD
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by OneCD »

oyvindo wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:46 pm Nice write-up, but I didn't find LXDE mentioned?
https://wiki.lxde.org/en/Main_Page

http://www.lxde.org/

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kellic
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by kellic »

I went to QNAP in 2019 and I'll be blunt. This will be the first and last product I get from them. Once my product is EoLed I will be going with something else. Creating a Pihole container was a massive pain in the ***. Now I need to figure out how to do it again because "reasons"
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by gruntled »

I have a TS-831X, which as of this post is still tagged as having full support in the support matrix.

Docker has never worked properly on this NAS, probably because of the janky 32bit arm core. (As an aside, QNAP why is there such a huge performance penalty for migrating tasks between CPUs on this thing? I need to pin cpu-bound processes to specific cores with taskset or eat a 40% performance hit.)

Killing LXC means I can't use virtualization at all. What the heck guys?
vmsman
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by vmsman »

@kellic I will be glad to help you get a Pi-hole and other things working. QNAP gear is quite good in reality. The issue is that you need massive tribal knowledge to master getting things working and the company is poor at communicating changes, updates and best practices. I have 30 containers running on my QNAP of all types and I am glad to help.
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oyvindo
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by oyvindo »

@vmsman, After updating to 2.4.0.2316 version of container station, it is no longer possible for me to create new containers:
Here's a list of the problems I encountered:

1. The List of available versions from Docker HUB of a particular container, is incomplete
2. Trying to install "latest" image and the UI becomes unresponsive when clicking "Create".
3. Pulled the correct image manually from Docker HUB, and tried to create a container from it in CS, and the same thing happens: UI becomes unresponsive when I click "Create".

I tried to wait a long time (10 minutes) but nothing happens.

So, there seems to be some really bad bugs in 2.4.0.2316 version of container station.
Downgrading doesn't seem straightforward - although theoretically possible, but with CS, it will require full re-install of all containers.
The advice given to me by "experts" over at Discord, is to abandon CS and instead move to Proxmox.

What is your advise?
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uwe_k
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Re: Container Station loss of functionality

Post by uwe_k »

I manually installed the older version 2.3.5 over 2.4 and all containers are still working.

Uwe
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