QNAP - no, thanks

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1shot2killz
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QNAP - no, thanks

Post by 1shot2killz »

Hi,
I will write you a short story that effectively discouraged me from joining the QNAP producer and I will share it with all my friends from the IT.
I purchased the TS-831XU-RP in February 2018. Everything was fine. However, for two weeks in bays 4 to 8, random hard drives began to disappear. Upon contact with support, it was determined that the Backplane was the cause.
Ok, I sent a question to the service about a spare part and when they can replace it. He gets the answer: we don't have spare parts, not even in Taiwan. EOL product. Pay and buy a new QNAP. Goodbye.

It still hasn't hit me. I bought a product that is not yet 3 years old, and a similar manufacturer that is refurbished does not have a single spare part for its product.
It is said that QNAP is a great brand, it has an engineering background, environmental protection, support. In my case, it didn't work.
It is as if the car manufacturer released the 2015 model, and in 2020 it would stop producing parts. Completely incomprehensible to me.
There is nothing else but to go to a competitive company and I will pass the same on to my friends.

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dolbyman
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by dolbyman »

1shot2killz wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:39 am It is as if the car manufacturer released the 2015 model, and in 2020 it would stop producing parts. Completely incomprehensible to me.
not to defend that practice .. but check this out

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nissan ... -1.5769998


also for the problem at hand, see the last 10 pages of this thread
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=134212
1shot2killz
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by 1shot2killz »

dolbyman wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:25 am
1shot2killz wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:39 am It is as if the car manufacturer released the 2015 model, and in 2020 it would stop producing parts. Completely incomprehensible to me.
not to defend that practice .. but check this out

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nissan ... -1.5769998


also for the problem at hand, see the last 10 pages of this thread
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=134212
Thank you for Link. Maybe I can deal with the problem myself.
I have a great hint for the manufacturer. If you want to be a leading premium brand in the production of devices, keep spare parts, for example, for example Porsche.
Kiss our a*s*s and buy a new one is not a good way to get satisfied customers.
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spile
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by spile »

In the UK, consumer law states that products must be fit for purpose. Manufacturers are not exempt from this because an item (especially high value) falls out of a 12 month period. The onus is on the retailer.
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jaysona
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by jaysona »

1shot2killz wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:55 am Thank you for Link. Maybe I can deal with the problem myself.
I have a great hint for the manufacturer. If you want to be a leading premium brand in the production of devices, keep spare parts, for example, for example Porsche.
Kiss our a*s*s and buy a new one is not a good way to get satisfied customers.
Lolz!! QNAP is not a premium brand or anywhere near the likes of Porsche. QNAP is more like Lada of the 1980's. :p
RAID is not a Back-up!

H/W: QNAP TVS-871 (i7-4790. 16GB) (Plex server) / TVS-EC1080 (32Gig ECC) - VM host & seedbox
H/W: Asustor AS6604T (8GB) / Asustor AS7010T (16GB) (media storage)
H/W: TS-219 Pro / TS-509 Pro
O/S: Slackware 14.2 / MS Windows 7-64 (x5)
Router1: Asus RT-AC86U - Asuswrt-Merlin - 386.7_2
Router2: Asus RT-AC68U - Asuswrt-Merlin - 386.7_2
Router3: Linksys WRT1900AC - DD-WRT v3.0-r46816 std
Router4: Asus RT-AC66U - FreshTomato v2021.10.15

Misc: Popcorn Hour A-110/WN-100, Pinnacle Show Center 250HD, Roku SoundBridge Radio (all retired)
Ditched QNAP units: TS-269 Pro / TS-253 Pro (8GB) / TS-509 Pro / TS-569 Pro / TS-853 Pro (8GB)
TS-670 Pro x2 (i7-3770s 16GB) / TS-870 Pro (i7-3770 16GB) / TVS-871 (i7-4790s 16GB)
Bob Zelin
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by Bob Zelin »

I guess this guy doesn't like Apple products either !
:)

When people tell me they are going to buy one of the Annapurna based products - I tell them, "don't even bother" - but people look for the cheapest thing possible.
IF you were to tell the original poster to have purchased a TVS-872XT or TVS-1282XT instead of the useless TS-831X, he would have said at the time "are you crazy - I am not going
to spend that kind of money !".

Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin / Rescue 1, Inc.
http://www.bobzelin.com
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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

thats why i went from a ts-653a to a ts-877. after that plex transcoding worked as i wanted without any buffering issue.

a lot of my media was high bit rate 1080p which the older nas couldn't handle (cept probly unless i had a plex pass which i don't, so i could use the intel quicksync)


but i saw on reddit someone who used a ts-228a to stream their 4k videos to a nvidia shield, and they said it played back just fine?
https://www.reddit.com/r/qnap/comments/ ... s/gaxbopv/
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
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rafale
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by rafale »

Though I can understand the OP's frustration, It also puzzles me why this model even existed. It is a rackmount/server design based on an absolutely bottom of the line crappy architecture. It is no surprise that it got obsoleted very quickly. It is no excuse for not supporting spares but... if it was up to me, I would not bother repairing it either. It probably sold very poorly. Just not worth repairing or keeping spares for.
Server: TVS-872XT i9 9900 ES, 64GB DDR4 2666MHz, intel X550-T2, Asus RTX3070 Dual OC (On pico PSU), 2x Phison E12 1TB M.2, 4x Micron 5210 7.68TB, 4x WD Purple 4TB
Backup NAS: TS-473 20GB DDR4 2400MHz, Mellanox ConnectX3, 2x Samsung PM871b 256GB M.2, 4x WD Red 8TB
Former units: TVS-1282, TS-871, TS-469
kherr4377
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by kherr4377 »

That's why you don't want to be dependent on a HARDWAWARE NAS with the manufacturer not providing :

Affordable spare parts in the future
Affordable upgrade path over time
Affordable configurations/options

You "roll your own" and get a software solution. I chose FreeNAS, now TrueNAS (ZFS). The company has been around and will be around because they make their $$$ with enterprise customers.
You choose your hardware .... within their compatibility range, namely LSI HBA "non raid" disk controllers, main stream network cards ..... stuff that are "wise" choices anyway. Just about any MB that supports decent CPUs..... It is a memory hog though, but the more you have the faster it runs. I currently have 64GB .... memory is cheap.

Need more HP ... upgrade the CPU.
Your controller dies ....get new one from NewEgg .... in a couple of days ......
ZFS is rock solid, there's videos that people TRY to trash the pool ..... unplug the power .... physically destroy the controller/memory by zapping it with high voltage ...... nada .... the pool survives.
Want totally new build ..... backup your config .... move over the drives ..... install FN ...... and walla ... the pools/settings are probably there without restoring the config. .... it could care less what order the drives are in.

I'd hate to think what Qnap would charge for a 12 - bay rack mount with a R5 3600 CPU / 64 MB ram / duel fiber 10Gb ..... Less drives I probably paid ~$1500 tops ... all new hardware. You can save serious coin by buying a reconditioned case or server. FN prefers Intel server CPUs, but your not tied to them. Currently I have a 96TB raw box with ~57TB usable. Equivalent to a R60 ( 2 X R6 - 6X8TB)

There is a learning curve though and have found how "chinncey" Qnap was in their implantation of rsync server by not having "rsync Modules". You have to be an SSH guru to get a FN box to rsync to a Qnap box because of that.

Before I had to send my Qnap 873 back to Q twice because of problems that would have been only a couple days down if everything wasn't on the proprietary MB. It took over 3 weeks downtime + $70+ for shipping it back to them .... time is $$$$. The only downside besides the learning curve is the relatively few apps.

Once I get squared away in about 9 months with a backup FN, I'll retire my Qnap's totally.
Production :
TVS-673 4.3.4 0387
4 X 3TB WD RED : 1 X 4TB HGST DESKSTAR R5
32GB
LAN-10G1SR-D, FiberHal for Cisco SFP-10G-SR
NETGEAR ProSAFE SS3300-28X

Backup :
TS-469L 4.3.4 0387
4 X 3TB WD RED R5
3GB
Located detached garage .. cheap offsite solution ...

2nd TS-469L awaiting drives and reassignment for front-line duty .......
Bob Zelin
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by Bob Zelin »

oh my my - there are SO many big shots out there.
you don't "roll your own". Let's say you are a big fan of FreeNAS (now TrueNAS) and you want a professional reliable solution, with support from a professional company. And if you hate QNAP, and you hate Synology -
Do you know what professionals do ?
You purchase this -
https://www.ixsystems.com/

I am not sure who you work for - but this is not a hobby for me. FreeNAS is great, but you need a hardware provider that you can rely on. This is no different than guys that say "oh, I can built a Hackintosh" - and then
Apple does an update, and your Hackintosh no longer works. This is not a game, and you have "fun" experimenting with what works, and does not work. You just go to ixSystems, you buy a professional solution from them
(they are FreeNAS and now TrueNAS), and you get a working system.

You don't go to Newegg.

want a little TrueNAS system - well here you go -
https://www.truenas.com/truenas-mini-2/ ... ems.com%2F

this is a small TrueNAS entry level system, for those wanting to experiment with TrueNAS - on the Amazon store -
https://www.amazon.com/iXsystems-TrueNA ... 769&sr=8-1

This is not a game. At least not for me.
Bob Zelin
Bob Zelin / Rescue 1, Inc.
http://www.bobzelin.com
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rafale
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by rafale »

Yup, been there, done that... Built a freenas box. Was all happy. No hack but gosh... it was painful to maintain. Much happier with my QNAP(s). Sorry going with your own build is not gonna help with spares. If for anything, it could be even worse. I agree with Bob on this.
Server: TVS-872XT i9 9900 ES, 64GB DDR4 2666MHz, intel X550-T2, Asus RTX3070 Dual OC (On pico PSU), 2x Phison E12 1TB M.2, 4x Micron 5210 7.68TB, 4x WD Purple 4TB
Backup NAS: TS-473 20GB DDR4 2400MHz, Mellanox ConnectX3, 2x Samsung PM871b 256GB M.2, 4x WD Red 8TB
Former units: TVS-1282, TS-871, TS-469
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jaysona
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by jaysona »

Going it on your own can be quite beneficial, epsecially for spares when the spares are not custom PCBs. The biggest benefit and at the same time, the biggest issue with QNAP is their custom PCBs, the lack of after market PCBs is a big issue, especially when there appears to be a build quality issue with certain types of boards.

I have just finished buying a bunch of used QNAPs (TS-870, TVS-871 & TVS-EC1080) as part of my NAS upgrade and consolidation project, but I think when I need to look at a NAS unit I'll go the build-your-own route again with one of these:
https://www.u-nas.com/xcart/cart.php?ta ... ory_id=249
RAID is not a Back-up!

H/W: QNAP TVS-871 (i7-4790. 16GB) (Plex server) / TVS-EC1080 (32Gig ECC) - VM host & seedbox
H/W: Asustor AS6604T (8GB) / Asustor AS7010T (16GB) (media storage)
H/W: TS-219 Pro / TS-509 Pro
O/S: Slackware 14.2 / MS Windows 7-64 (x5)
Router1: Asus RT-AC86U - Asuswrt-Merlin - 386.7_2
Router2: Asus RT-AC68U - Asuswrt-Merlin - 386.7_2
Router3: Linksys WRT1900AC - DD-WRT v3.0-r46816 std
Router4: Asus RT-AC66U - FreshTomato v2021.10.15

Misc: Popcorn Hour A-110/WN-100, Pinnacle Show Center 250HD, Roku SoundBridge Radio (all retired)
Ditched QNAP units: TS-269 Pro / TS-253 Pro (8GB) / TS-509 Pro / TS-569 Pro / TS-853 Pro (8GB)
TS-670 Pro x2 (i7-3770s 16GB) / TS-870 Pro (i7-3770 16GB) / TVS-871 (i7-4790s 16GB)
alpha754293
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by alpha754293 »

If I just want to whine and complain, I can think of cons for both routes - Qnap AND TrueNAS (as I am currently running both):

Cons for TrueNAS:
I'm trying to push about 100 GB of data onto my TrueNAS server (specs below) and so far, with 8 transfer "streams", combined, it is average maybe around 10 MB/s (on a gigabit ethernet interface). The TrueNAS Core 12.0-U1.1 dashboard shows around 10.7 GiB of RAM being used for ZFS cache and yet, despite this, I still can't get anywhere CLOSE to gigabit speeds on the network. Nothing specific has been identified as a part of the root cause analysis.

(Specs for my TrueNAS server:
2x Intel Xeon E5310 (4-core, 4-threads, 1.6 GHz), 16 GB of DDR2-667 RAM, 4x HGST 3 TB SATA 6 Gbps 7200 rpm HDDs, ZFS raid-z, 2x LSI MegaRAID SAS 6 Gbps 9240-8i)

I only built this server because the Buffalo LinkStation LS441DE wasn't getting GbE speeds either and I figured that TrueNAS should be able to do better, right? Nope. Still **.

(I've actually logged into the system over ssh and am running 'zfs iostat share 1' to watch/monitor the live stats and the bandwidth is jumping all over the place with it being as low as like 5 MB/s and as high as 39 MB/s.)

My point being, a "DIY" solution ISN'T always better.

It might be "better" from a hardware failure perspective, but that STILL depends SIGNIFICANTLY on the hardware that you're running.

(I bought this server used, off of eBay because I just needed a dumb system to host data/files so I didn't want to spend a lot of money nor do I want something that was way overkill in terms of processing capability/power).

----

Conversely, on the QNAP side of things, the cons for QNAP, as stated, is hardware reliability and future service parts availability, and also I am not sure if Qnap's QTS operating system using mdadm to handle the RAID (i.e. there's no hardware RAID controller in the unit).

(I'm using Qnap TS-832X, and its has 8x HGST 6 TB SATA 6 Gbps 7200 rpm HDDs in there in RAID5.)

But at least with the QNAP unit, a) I'm getting 1 GbE speeds (even with an ARM processor) and b) there's also a nice file/data management GUI which TrueNAS severely lacks (which means that you can't perform any data administration tasks via their GUI, so if you want to move a bunch of files selectively, it is far easier to do it on another system that HAS a GUI data management interface (e.g. like Windows Explorer or Qnap's File Station) because let's face it, multi-select in ssh/CLI just **.

On the other hand though, honestly, after having spent the time to build and set up TrueNAS, there aren't that many reasons why I wouldn't go with a Qnap unit. I've had my TrueNAS server now for a few months and the more time I spend on it, the more time I WISHED that I would've bitten the bullet of the cost of buying a mid-range Qnap NAS system because their hardware is mostly commodity hardware (or you can get commodity hardware versions of the Qnap server, so there is no real special "magic sauce" to that, but their QTS software IS, IMO, very good at what it is designed to do.

I wished that Qnap had 100 Gbps support (which they do now in one of their all-flash servers), which TrueNAS Core, last I asked, still doesn't (it will load the mlx5core module, but it won't actually start the NIC. I tried.).

I've been very pleased with the QNAP systems to be honest, and I've beaten the crap out of them, pushing multi-TB worth of reads/writes over the networks. It works, generally, as advertised, and it does so really, really well.

They're expensive, but they have worked far more reliably (i.e. you buy one, you know that it is going to work as advertised whereas with a DIY solution, you aren't guaranteed that things will work the way that you think they're going to work).

It should NOT be taking me hours to put 100 GB of data onto my TrueNAS server. It should've been like 20-30 minutes, max. (One of the copy dialog boxes in Windows says to copy the remaining 11.3 GB onto my TrueNAS system, it is going to take an hour because it's currently averaging 1.37 MB/s.)

*sidebar*
RAID is not a backup.

I think that the whole question in regards to hardware reliability and availability of service parts becomes a VASTLY bigger issue when people use NAS systems (and/or RAID of any kind) as "backup" rather than having actual backups of their data such that in the event of a hardware failure like this, they're not screwed.

I've learn THAT lesson the hard way.
dnsplus
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by dnsplus »

question ... did you put a ZFS volume on top of a MegaRAID Hardware raid volume? You didnt mention how you setup your ZFS Pool, so I am guessing it's presented as one large drive. Would that be an accurate guess?
========================================
1x TS-563
2x TS-859 Pro+
TrueNAS server with 125 600GB SAS 10K drives
exmachina
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Re: QNAP - no, thanks

Post by exmachina »

Hello.

We just experienced the same issue, intermittent drives in bays 5 to 8.
I was able to restore functionnality by bypassing the 4 double mosfet that control the drives power supply. Here is a better explanation of the issue : viewtopic.php?t=134212&start=495#p758708

To fix this NAS : locate the 4 4957AGM double mosfets on the backplane that connects the hard drives (small 8 pin surface mount chips), remove them from the backplane, install wire jumpers between pins 1 and 5, and between pins 3 and 7 of all 4 mosfets.
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