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Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:03 pm
by Moogle Stiltzkin
GTunney wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:05 pm
No I didn't get any disconnected drives just really bad system stability.

On shutdown sometimes it would hang, on powering up sometimes it would hang on booting. Random reboots during the night.

The rebuild will be due to unexpected shutdown. Mine was so bad I was doing a rebuild every 3 days. NAS would randomly reboot, I'd rebuild over 2 days, 3rd day nas would random reboot again and the whole process started again.

The RAM itself was fine and passed all Memtests so it must have been a compatibility issue with the ram I put in.

The problem also followed me from my TS-453B to my TS-653B and the RAM / HDD was the only thing that was transferred.

It may not be the RAM but i'm just speaking from my issues and the torment I had for over a year trying to diagnose this issue with QNAP.
that sounds exactly what i'm experiencing (In addition to that disconnected hdd4).

now that i think about it, i did have some although less frequent event where the qnap would reboot on it's own :shock: i didn't think much of it at the time because it very rarely happened and everything seemed alright at the time. but i see a trend from then leading up to this point (system instability etc) :S

thx :) feeling more confident the issue should fix once i replace the hdd and ram.

*cross fingers

i have no idea how you could hold on for a whole year. a week is my limit of tolerance for nas downtime :shock:

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:46 am
by Moogle Stiltzkin
installed the diagnostic tool app in appcenter, ran the memory test but it completed so fast, and it didn't seem like there was an issue.

this seems like a less thorough test compared to say
muntos wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:11 pm
A USB stick booting with Memtest86 ?
Trexx wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:35 am
It could be you have a bad DIMM.

I would trying using 1 DIMM at a time in Slot 1 and see if 1 of the DIMMs is unstable/causing problems.

Best way to test is to create a memtest+ USB drive and boot that to test the dimm (if you have a GPU card installed so you can see the screen/etc.).
but i can't exactly do that atm since helpdesk is in remote session to assist currently :{

so right now just finishing up scandisk on the wd red 4tb (finished the smart test long no issues).

then gonna do a zero fill (maybe it's overkill? it's a factory sealed hdd brand new. but i got time until helpdesk is finished with their troubleshoot before i can swap out the hdd4 to rebuild with the new hdd anyway)


Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:06 am
by Moogle Stiltzkin
For my reinitialize, any suggestions for this setup?
Storage Pool 1 - Volume 1 - SSD x 2 (RAID 1)
- Purpose: QPKG Applications, Virtual PCs, etc.
- Thick-Provisioned
- 20% Snapshot Reserved (Adjustable Based on Need)
- Will Increase Volume Size from ~50% to Max (As Needed)

Storage Pool 2 - Volume 1 - SATA x 6 (RAID 6)
- Purpose: Data Storage (Multimedia & PC Backups)
- Thick-Provisioned
- 10% Snapshot Reserved (Will Adjust as Needed or Reduce if Unused)
- Will Increase Volume Size from ~70% Drive Size to Max (As Needed)

The separate storage pools really seem to make sense to me as I was looking to more clearly separate OS/Apps drives from the Data drives. I have yet to really play with the setup yet, but so far managing two pools has not been very cumbersome and everything is working as I had hoped. The ability to make changes to storage pools without necessarily affecting the other, or setting up snapshots differently, provision drives differently, etc., makes it a more flexible option in my opinion. I am taking it slow and not dumping lots of data on the drives yet, so I can test the setup to my satisfaction and still make big changes without any serious consequences. Might be worth setting it up similarly if your use case matches mine and see how you like it for a week or so before fully committing.

is that a good setup? or should i do things differently.

so far i've used ssd cache acceleration, but i guess this time around i can try a different setup that could possibly be better.
SSD caching is rarely useful for home users and some even report the NAS becoming slower by using it. The advantage is that you can easily switch it on and off and see how it work for you.
but i'm not too familiar with this new setup :' but it's something i had been considering for a while now.

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:13 am
by Trexx
Only change I might make would be using static volume for your SSD (Raid-1) config especially if you are using M.2 SSD's for it, but you will trade off snapshot support for the extra performance.

I usually go with 10% over-provision for SSD's as a staring point.

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:28 am
by Moogle Stiltzkin
Trexx wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:13 am
Only change I might make would be using static volume for your SSD (Raid-1) config especially if you are using M.2 SSD's for it, but you will trade off snapshot support for the extra performance.

I usually go with 10% over-provision for SSD's as a staring point.
yeah i considered static volume for it, but then i wouldn't be able to use snapshots. I think that snapshot protection to protect against ransomware on the OS raid (the 2x256gb m.2 raid1) would be better? what do you think :' (i was planning on 5% reserved for snapshots which is the barest minimum).
I have no idea how much performance trade off there will be, but surely it's not going to be that bad vs hdd... or is it? :'

It's 20% is lesser performance, static vol vs thick vol.

also i thought performance dip only occurs when snapshots are being done. In my snapshot setting i have it set to do a daily scheduled snapshots, so it's not actively doing it all the time, just during the scheduled time only. But what does worry me is how much wear would snapshots incur for ssds? with hdds this was not even a problem for me. but with ssds i need to be mindful not to cause it to wear out too much from excessive delete operations happening too frequently (the snapshots settings have a delete old snapshot once it becomes full, and stay within the 5% reserved space quota)?

i don't know how much storage QTS tends to use, but certainly 256gb (probably 20% less after formating and reserving 5% etc) should be enough for the QTS OS and the apps in appcenter?

I plan to use VMs separately on the Intel SSD (if i don't have enough space on the M.2 ssd. tbh i should have went for 2x 500gb :( *regret )

the 4x4tb pool2 raid i will also reserve snapshots (5% also)

right now i have helpdesk remote session active, although i'm not sure if they are actively checking regarding the stability issue i'm having which resulted in multiple raid rebuilds over a short time, and hdd disconnection (absurdly they wanted me to check on a low priority issue for a different ticket i had also, while i had a more urgent issue with possible risk of data loss happening right now.... :S ). and system generally feeling slow at times (which by the way i don't think is a qts 4.4.1 problem, because i have it on the ts-653a and it's running swellingly)

So i'm pretty much waiting on them to troubleshoot, before i can reinitialize. (at this point it feels like i'm the only one doing the troubleshoot diligently on my end :( sigh....)

speaking of which, to reinitialize (to the new setup as mentioned), i'm suppose to remove all the hdds? EXCEPT the 2xm.2 ssds. then when that's done, go to storage manager, setup the 2nd pool for the 4x4tb hdds. removing the hdd4 for the new wd red 4tb)

That hdd4 hgst 4tb i'll do a zero fill then move it to the ts-659 Pro II Smart says it's okay but... i'm not too sure about that :(

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:49 am
by Moogle Stiltzkin
or maybe i can try with snapshots first and see how performance goes. and also how much wear it's getting from a daily schedule snapshots. And if it's not good, perhaps change snapshots to weekly or monthly. Or i may end up just setting it up static like you suggested if that doesn't work out.

unless it's a really bad idea having snapshots run on 2x256gb raid1 ? (not sure if the capacity size is ideal for this purpose :shock: )

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:03 pm
by Moogle Stiltzkin
even after looking at the QNAP manual for installing ram, it doesn't say anything about whether configuring bios to get the max speed for your ram, or if it's required for dual channel to work. Is XMP enabled by default in the TS-877? Image so with XMP enabled i stick it in (the correct slots for dual channel) and it auto configures itself for max speed?

All i could find on this subject was this
That RAM might work (but will not fit using stock fans) although it will still run at 2133MHz due to below restrictions:
1. You would need to enable XMP in the BIOS in order to run SPD profiles above 2133Mhz which I don't think you can do with x82/T.
2. Memory voltage is locked at 1.2volts. That Corsair RAM runs at 2133MHz on 1.2v
3. Intel Core i7 6700 is locked

If you want heatsink with your RAM sticks that would fit along with stock fans, the Kingston HyperX Fury works (pics on page 14)
However, you no longer have to go into your BIOS and manually set the RAM timings value by value. Instead, the RAM you buy has a small amount of storage on it that provides one or two Intel “Extreme Memory Profiles.” Your BIOS can read these profiles and automatically configure the optimal timings chosen by your RAM’s manufacturer. These will be the RAM’s advertised timings.

If you have an AMD CPU instead, you may be able to enable “AMP”–AMD Memory Profiles. This is AMD’s version of Intel’s XMP.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=120720&p=562360&hi ... am#p562360 ... ed-speeds/

is installing the ram in the correct slots sufficient for dual channel to be recognized? or do i need to do something in bios for it? confused :S i don't often mess with bios related stuff.

By the way the ram got delayed for delivery. it's due to holidays this week Image. was surprised i even got the hard drive as soon as i did Image

did i purchase ram too soon?
DRAM Prices to drop even further due to trade war - could drop by 25% by years end

DRAM Prices to drop even further due to trade war - could drop by 25% by years end
You will have noticed it, hey we reported about it several times already. But DRAM prices have been on the decline big time, and a new report from DRAMeXchange states it will drop even further.

Yesterday a new report from DRAMeXchange was released indicating prices for the third and fourth quarter. DRAM prices are expected to fall even further as a direct result of the trade war between the United States and China.

Initially, they expected a drop by 10% in the third quarter of this year, and in the fourth quarter 2 to 5 percent. However they now corrected and expect a maximum of 15% in the third quarter, and in the fourth quarter by a maximum of around 10 percent. ... s-end.html
Can anyone explain why the trade war caused a drop in RAM instead of the opposite? Thanks.
I too found this weird, but my guess is the price drop is meant to compensate for the tariff prices. After all, it's been pretty obvious that the increase in RAM prices was mostly artificial, so, I'm sure the manufacturers have some headroom for the extra cash they get and are willing to sacrifice it to prevent people getting angry that prices have gone up again.

That being said, I doubt the US is going to see much of a price drop, but everywhere else will.
DRAMeXchange , a division of TrendForce , points out that, as ripples from the US ban continue to spread, Huawei's shipments of smartphone and server products are feared to face heavy obstacles for the next two to three quarters , impacting peak-season-demand for DRAM products 2H and the time of price precipitation. TrendForce officially adjusts its outlook for 3Q DRAM prices from its original prediction of a 10% decline to a widened 10-15%.

it was an emergency for me, and the price wasn't too bad. but for those of you with not much urgency, probably better to wait a bit longer :)

ADATA Shows Off a JEDEC-compliant 32GB Dual-rank DIMM That Isn't "Double Capacity"

Last year, with the introduction of the Intel Z390 chipset, there was a spate of so-called "double capacity DIMMs" or DC DIMMs, tall memory modules with two rows of DRAM chips, which added up to 32 GB per DIMM. You needed a Z390 platform and a 9th generation Core processor that supported up to 128 GB of memory, to use these things. With the introduction of 16 Gb DDR4 DRAM chips by both Micron and Samsung, JEDEC-compliant 32 GB unbuffered DIMMs of standard height are finally possible, and ADATA put together the first of these, shown off at Computex 2019.

The AD4U2666732GX16 is a 32-gigabyte dual-rank unbuffered DIMM made using 16 Gb chips supplied by Micron Technology. The modules tick at JEDEC-standard DDR4-2666 speeds, at a module voltage of 1.2 Volts. ADATA didn't disclose timings. The 16 Gb DRAM chips are made by Micron in an advanced (3rd generation) 10 nm-class silicon fabrication process to achieve the desired transistor-density. 32 GB DIMMs are expected to hit critical-mass in 2H-2019/2020, with the advent of AMD's 3rd generation Ryzen "Matisse," and Intel's "Ice Lake-S" desktop processors. Memory manufacturers are also expected to put out speedy and highly-compatible single-rank 16-gigabyte DIMMs using 16 Gb chips, which could finally make 32 GB dual-channel the mainstream memory configuration, moving up from half a decade of 2x 8 GB. ... e-capacity

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:09 pm
by Moogle Stiltzkin
today is another round of raid resync....

not sure when the next raid rebuild is gonna hit. but i still got a system unclean. repeated and common occurrence of

- random reboot
- raid resync
- system unclean
- raid rebuild (none of these are good but this is probably the worse since it takes 11+ hours to rebuild).

with all this happening, i do not trust the data stored on the qnap atm. some data must have been corrupted by this point.

i would have just reinit by now, but i am waiting on helpdesk to check this out first..... actually i already got the heads up to procede since they were done with their check. they couldn't figure out the cause, instead want me to let them know when it happens again (it happened like 4+ times by now.... how many times more do they need?).... and then close this ticket..... :S ... what? you didn't tell me what to do about this yet (the bare minimum i would expect), nevermind not knowing what caused it :shock:

So now i see the system is acting up again, so i report this to helpdesk to check it since they asked, before i can then finally proceed to reinit.

i suspect it's gonna take 2-3 weeks before
- i get the new ram to replace the old
- i finally get time to reinit....after first waiting on helpdesk to get back to me
- waiting on helpdesk to confirm they are checking on issue, and hopefully come back with advise on what to do....

at this rate i'm developing technical support rage lel..... :( so much time wasted.

anyone any ideas why this is happening, or what to do? :(

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:43 pm
by Moogle Stiltzkin
i notice that in the top right notifications, it doesn't quite update the current progress.

for example....

it didn't say that system file check completed.

instead i had to go to the system log which does say it's completed.

bug qts 4.4.1? or just my qts got scrambled to not be working properly as it should (because of the repeated system unclean due to random reboots) :S

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:36 pm
by Moogle Stiltzkin
noticed this in logs

this happens only if you opted into ulink drive analyzer program by sending the hdd analytics. (it's in storage manager settings qts)

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:40 pm
by Moogle Stiltzkin
hm i think i did the reinitialization wrongly.

1. factory reset

2. i shutdown
3. take out all the hdds except for the m.2 ssd
4. boot up.
5. reinitialize (restart)
6. then when it boots up i get this


so what did i do wrong? why is it still detecting the raid thing even though i had already remove the hdds and asked it to reinitialize?

anyway, i remove the volumes and pools, then reinitialize again.

way back, last time when i renitialized, i got that reinit setup page. but this time around it just reboots and goes into the qts login page instead. did they change this process at some point :'


still going through the process. will update here later

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:59 pm
by Moogle Stiltzkin
Okay so after the renit, should then use the qfinder to launch the admin which will then prompt out the smart reinitialization setup.

So did that then managed to start from scratch.





and on qts first time login you are greeted first by this. kewl, i do trust that the data stored on the QNAP is secure and private (except when it comes to the options that flag sharing analytics and myqnapcloud). this time around i'll probably avoid using myqnapcloud as i don't really need it. as useful and convenient it is especially for newbies, i feel that VPN is much more appropriate for secure remote access (and it doesn't have privacy issues)

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:52 am
by Moogle Stiltzkin
First thing to do is setup the storage.

this time around, instead of ssd cache acceleration, just gonna simply use 2x 256gb m.2 ssd for QTS aka Cachedev1. The over provisioning option is on the "next" page. So you don't need to run SSD OP profiler as that is totally optional and only if you are uncertain what op% to set.



Previously i wondered where do you setup SED, and apparently it's when creating a raid using the ssd will it then pop out the option for SED. I don't need it, also i'm not sure how secure SED truly is


so anyway, after create the pool with the ssd. create the volume also the same ssd? :' Anyway, once i reached this point where cachedev1 is installed onto the SSD raid1, only then do i plug in the HDDs. I will setup a 2nd pool and cachedev2 (4x4tb raid5 thick with snapshots enabled)

just enough space for QTS and the qpkg apps. doesn't look like it's enough to be running a full blown vm on. so maybe the 500gb m2. ssd would have been a better choice in retrospect :( anyway i will use a separate dedicated single static SSD volume for installing virtual station and vms on.

i got snapshots 5% reserved for SSD. i'm just testing this setup using snapshots. If i feel it's not needed i will just disable it for SSD (and for future reference just setup a static volume like trex suggested). but for the vol2 hdd 4x4tb raid array, i mostly definitely want snapshots enabled.

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:17 am
by Moogle Stiltzkin
hm... setting up after reinit, the wireless adapter installed is not detected. this is probably similar to a previous situation i had last time. Is this a bug?
we managed to get wireless adapter detected in virtual switch by removing wireless ap station, restart qnap, reinstall wireless ap station.... re-add wireless access point.

it then creates a virtual switch for the wireless ap, and it successfully becomes active.
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=144190&hilit=wirel ... 60#p713900

so i'll do that the next chance i get to reboot the qnap.

as i suspected, this fixed the problem

1. uninstall wireless apstation
2. reboot qnap
3. install wireless apstation (now the wireless adapter is detected).

So.... my question is... why didn't it detect it properly the first time? :S anyway, it worked with a minor work around.

This video has a good setup guide for virtual switch use with the wireless adapters
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=144190&hilit=wirel ... 60#p713900


figured out about the dhcp fix ip.

When you create the virtual switch, and you assign the wireless ap to it, you can make that virtual switch have a fix lan ip. In standalone mode you can also enable the DHCP. Then for connected devices to that DHCP, to assign fix ip for those client devices, you're suppose to go to the OTHER tab DHCP server, where you can select the virtual switch the DHCP server was created for, and then assign the FIX lan ip for the client devices using their mac address as identifiers.

So yeah, there is nothing wrong with the DHCP server setup process. i just missed the DHCP server tab settings (which was a separate tab and configured separately when creating the virtual switch :ashamed: )

anyway for wireless using the QWA wireless adapter, i got 2 modes setup.

- connect to the qnap wirelessly via the QNAP's assigned fix lan ip issued by the router. So i can access the qnap either wirelessly or wired just fine. So instead of connecting to the router wireless ap (you still can), i can instead connect directly to the qnap wireless ap. Also wired setups work fine in this dual mode for other devices that can connect wired via switch. It also has the benefit that the lan ip remains unchanged when switching between wired and wireless mode.
- connect to the qnap without relying on the router (you can disconnect the QNAP from the router and wired network). The QNAP then acts as the DHCP server and can be accessed solely wirelessly.

right now i'm busy zero fill format all the hdds. I don't want the QNAP to be detecting the old setup from the hdds thats why. i want to start from scratch. in retrospect flashing the dom recovery would truly be starting from scratch. but flashing dom too often is not recommended. I'm not plagued by malware so i felt doing this was unnecessary for me.

Complete Reinitialization
The following information is two methods for performing a complete re-installation of a QNap NAS. The first involves hot swapping the hard disks at a particular point in the process. The second involves installing the hard disks in another computer and using an application to remove the partitions from the drives.


all the hgst deskstar 4 tb finished zero fill format. The WD red NAS 4tb is still at 86%

i'm not regretting going for the lower rpm wd reds since the wait time isn't too significant. however this is merely my observation where the performance difference of the drives is showing :'


i noticed in performance test that the wd red 4tb out performed the hgst deskstar 4tb hm.... it could be... maybe i inserted the wd red and ran the test slightly later? i don't recall :S

Re: [review] QNAP QTS 4.4.1 by Moogle

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:45 pm
by Moogle Stiltzkin
should bitmap be enabled for raid volumes all the time or as a temporary measure when requiring to pull a hdd from a raid array?
make sure you have bitmap enabled on the RAID

then pull the drives while the NAS is running (only one at a time.. and wait till the NAS a re-synced it back after testing before pulling the next drive)

also have backups at all times to prevent disaster
i'm not fully sure if i should enable this on the pool1/vol1 and pool2/vol2 raids or not :S

me and ghostrider apparently have the same question
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=145846&p=700436&hi ... ap#p700436

okay i found the best answer as to what the bitmap is used for
MrVideo wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:45 pm
OneCD wrote:
QNAP wrote:If the RAID group has a bitmap, only changes that were made after the disk was removed need to be synchronized, greatly speeding up the process.
A sync needs to be done, none-the-less. Shorter the better though. :mrgreen:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=143085&p=682375&hi ... ap#p682375

so okay, before intentionally removing a hdd from a raid, maybe enabling bitmap first is recommended for speedier recovery. but i'm not sure if leaving it on all the time is best. is there any downside to using bitmap? :'
P3R wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:04 am
wessameldin wrote:@P3R thanks for pointing the link its really helpful, actually i use the latest 4.3.3
do you think i need to enable "Bitmap" before the expanding attempt? what i understand is it helps in case of an error.
No you don't need it. Enable it if you want, it won't really hurt except maybe for slightly lower performance.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=137838&p=649456&hi ... ap#p649458

By the way trexx, yes it was the same hdd4 as last time that got mentioned (august last year). i found the post when i first reported the issue
Trexx wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:55 pm
Medium error means badblocks (possibly). I did get some "phantom" ones in middle 4.3.4 builds that seemed to occur when SATA bus was under stress (raid resync and other processes running simultaneously). But with latest version seems more reliable. Doesn't surprise me it showing up during raid sync.

I would do a badblock scan in QTS. Enable bitmap for volume and to be extra sure, remove suspect drive and run vendor test against it externally if QTS badblock shows no issues.

i'll try and do a vendor test i suppose :( (not really urgent since i already replaced it. but in spare time i can just check it anyway)