[WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

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[WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by Toxic17 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:55 pm

Regards Simon

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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by OneCD » Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:02 pm

Looks like it may be better to avoid the EFAX models then. :S

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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by Toxic17 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:14 pm

Yeah, not looking good unless NAS manufacturers can fix it their end.
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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Thu Apr 16, 2020 4:24 pm

Rule of thumb, for active workloads stick to PMR drives. For archive workloads where you only plan to write the data once, SMR should be fine.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/co ... f_caution/


Shingled are not recommend for raid. not to mention they have their own performance quirks that most people would rather stick to a PMR to avoid.


Talking a Look at SMR Drives, and How they do in RAID and Other Uses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLapkHd_dak

Fluxiton

SMR drives do not work on zfs. I mistakenly bought two not knowing they where SMR, they work for a bit but the random write performance is too slow and after a while zfs will remove them.


I had assumed that WD RED NAS were PMR but now this.....

When you buy a HDD labeled NAS and marketed for Raid, NOBODY expects it to be a SMR :shock:


then what about seagate ironwolves that are similar capacities and pricing. Are those pmr or shingled? :shock:
The Synology forum poster said he called WD support to ask if the drive was an SMR or conventionally recorded drive: “Western Digital support has gotten back to me. They have advised me that they are not providing that information so they are unable to tell me if the drive is SMR or PMR. LOL. He said that my question would have to be escalated to a higher team to see if they can obtain that info for me. lol

Also: “Well the higher team contacted me back and informed me that the information I requested about whether or not the WD60EFAX was a SMR or PMR would not be provided to me. They said that information is not disclosed to consumers. LOL. WOW.“
However, a WD Red datasheet does not mention SMR recording technology.
i'm no lawyer but i sense a possible class action lawsuit :' assuming it's still possible
Class-action cases are powerful ways for consumers to strike at businesses that, they claim, have done them wrong with faulty products, deceptive tactics and other market missteps. At the same time, businesses have long complained the lawsuits can be misused to advance frivolous claims while letting plaintiffs’ lawyers cash in.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-t ... 2019-02-13

SimonKepp

Given the severity of this problem, and the non-disclosure policy of all hard-drive vendors, can we make a reliable test to verify if a drive is SMR or PMR, and then crowd+source a model database with the results?

[–]courtarro

Looks like the article tests by writing zeroes to the drive and watching the speed drop after the CMR region size is exceeded. So you could try that, or random data, and see if the speed stays constant or drops off.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/co ... _detailed/

fermulator-

u/fazalmajid
, please update title/descr to clarify that this only affects WD##EFAX models; (EFRX are unaffected)

-

(this suggestion is based on various users' interpretations of the article)
fazalmajid

Reddit post titles cannot be edited:

https://www.reddit.com/r/modhelp/commen ... st_titles/

Are the EFRX still produced, and has WD taken a commitment to keep them PMR? There is nothing in their statement saying so, so they can very well discontinue the EFRX line once new-old stock is exhausted and/or turn the next revision bump of the EFRX into also a SMR. Given their shady behavior, I am not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. In any case the title is basically an abridgment of the original article title, with scare quotes added as an expression of contempt.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/co ... b_are_smr/


I got 2 x WD40EFRX :' so i guess i dodged a bullet or 2?

these were drives i sourced from amazon.


but i guess some people that shuck their hdds might be worried now as well :S
https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/co ... mr_or_pmr/

The revelation that some WD Red NAS drives are shipped with DM-SMR (Drive-Managed Shingled Magnetic Recording) prompted us to ask more detailed questions to the Blocks & Files reader who alerted us to the issue.
https://blocksandfiles.com/2020/04/15/s ... ng-writes/



Anyhow, while we are on topic maybe also pay attention to this
Western Digital to Demo Dual Actuator HDD, Will Use SMR to Hit 18TB Capacity
By Joel Hruska on March 11, 2019

Originally, Western Digital announced that it would launch 16TB and 18TB drives using both MAMR and CMR (Conventional Magnetic Recording) as opposed to SMR (Shingled Magnetic Recording). CMR lays down data in broad stripes. Shingled magnetic recording packs the data tracks more tightly, overlapping them one atop the other. The problem with SMR is that when you write data to one track, you also rewrite data on adjacent tracks. This means that while an SMR drive’s sequential performance is typically fine, random write performance suffers as the drive has to rewrite multiple tracks of data at once. SMR is a technology developed to increase density at the cost of performance.

The shift to HAMR / MAMR was supposed to make such technologies unnecessary. But, as Computerbase.de reports, Western Digital has subtly updated its guidance. In January, the company said it would launch an 18TB HDD with CMR. Now, it’s saying the same drive will use SMR. The first version of the slide above, published in January, identified the 18TB drive as a CMR model. The new guidance says SMR.

This could be a typo or a sign that WD has changed its plans, but either way, it suggests that MAMR might be having some scaling issues. Seagate apparently plans to return to CMR for future products, even as capacities rise. SMR may be useful for boosting capacities, but it doesn’t really offer any features that would make companies want to deploy it in the field if CMR is available.
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/2 ... b-capacity


based on that, seems we need to be careful what we are purchasing. since they may hide the necessary info :roll:
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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by Ron1963 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:25 pm

Wow, thanks for this info Moog!
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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:43 pm

Ron1963 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:25 pm
Wow, thanks for this info Moog!
np, you're welcome :D
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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by Toxic17 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:55 pm

the moral of the story is dont by WDx0EFAX drives for your NAS.
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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by togeis » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:34 pm

Is it possible QNAP updates the RAID Controller firmware not to kick out slower EFAX drives while rebuilding the RAID?
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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by dolbyman » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:51 pm

qnap units use software raid, no raid controllers involved

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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by P3R » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:00 am

WD first priced Red Pro ridiculously high considering their mediocre specifications compared to the competition and now they started this scam which hopefully customers punish by not buying WD Reds either. Had I been a US customer I would be happy to chase them legally... :evil:
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by P3R » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:01 am

togeis wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:34 pm
Is it possible QNAP updates the RAID Controller firmware not to kick out slower EFAX drives while rebuilding the RAID?
Qnap shouldn't fix the symptom! WD should stop selling products not fit for NAS usage labeled as NAS products!
Last edited by P3R on Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by dolbyman » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:05 am

I am waiting for the class action .. some extra money in my pocket

I have switched over to ironwolf (pro) in my recent purchases, so far I am happy

Low temps of the non-pro RED were a good sales argument though

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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by P3R » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:43 am

dolbyman wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:05 am
I am waiting for the class action .. some extra money in my pocket
I hope that will happen!
I have switched over to ironwolf (pro) in my recent purchases, so far I am happy
I switched 5 years ago when they were called Enterprise NAS. As WD Red Pro already then was more expensive with worse specifications, they weren't an option. :roll:

Seagate Enterprise Capacity is another alternative that I also use.
Low temps of the non-pro RED were a good sales argument though
And they're silent as well so this is very sad. Toshiba have unfortunately not been very good at marketing their products to the NAS market but I hope they can gain momentum from this as well.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by Toxic17 » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:07 am

WDs lame response

westerndigital.com: On WD Red NAS Drives.
https://blog.westerndigital.com/wd-red-nas-drives/

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Re: [WARNING] Western Digital admits 2TB-6TB WD Red NAS drives use shingled magnetic recording

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:51 am

On WD Red NAS Drives

, talking our way out of it


JOHNNY COCHRAN: I got oj off the hook, i'd like to see someone else try better.
WD: hold my beer 8)


APRIL 20, 2020

Image
Recently, there has been discussion regarding the recording technology used in some of our WD Red hard disk drives (HDDs). We regret any misunderstanding and want to take a few minutes to discuss the drives and provide some additional information.
We got caught red handed. Now let me explain how the world is flat, not round; how wrong is right; how you do not understand the situation, but we do, because clearly we have the best of intentions.... right??? :D so here are some sound bites below that is just noise and doesn't really mean anything that meaningfully prove SMR is suited for raid applications, or zfs for that matter .....(excited for qts hero aka ZFS Linux for QNAP? good cause i got a nice surprise waiting for you!)
WD Red HDDs are ideal for home and small businesses using NAS systems. They are great for sharing and backing up files using one to eight drive bays and for a workload rate of 180 TB a year. We’ve rigorously tested this type of use and have been validated by the major NAS providers.
SMR shingled are best for raid because we label these hdds for NAS use, despite tests that prove otherwise, although we won't be admitting to that. Oh, and about ZFS we never claim to support it for that but whatever we leave out is understood :D
We typically specify the designed-for use cases and performance parameters and don’t always talk about what’s under the hood. One of those innovations is Shingled Magnetic Recording (SMR) technology.
yeah, or you wouldn't be buying our crappy SMR hdds for NAS usage would you :lol:
SMR is tested and proven technology that enables us to keep up with the growing volume of data for personal and business use. We are continuously innovating to advance it. SMR technology is implemented in different ways – drive-managed SMR (DMSMR), on the device itself, as in the case of our lower capacity (2TB – 6TB) WD Red HDDs, and host-managed SMR, which is used in high-capacity data center applications. Each implementation serves a different use case, ranging from personal computing to some of the largest data centers in the world.
here are some facts. just not any that point out why SMR is BAD for raid applications, but we won't be saying that in our response :roll:
DMSMR is designed to manage intelligent data placement within the drive, rather than relying on the host, thus enabling a seamless integration for end users. The data intensity of typical small business/home NAS workloads is intermittent, leaving sufficient idle time for DMSMR drives to perform background data management tasks as needed and continue an optimal performance experience for users.
SMR is good enough for raid, trust us despite the facts telling people otherwise :D
WD Red HDDs have for many years reliably powered home and small business NAS systems around the world and have been consistently validated by major NAS manufacturers. Having built this reputation, we understand that, at times, our drives may be used in system workloads far exceeding their intended uses. Additionally, some of you have recently shared that in certain, more data intensive, continuous read/write use cases, the WD Red HDD-powered NAS systems are not performing as you would expect.
basically it was your fault all along for purchasing hdds that were SMR although we aren't allowed by company policy to tell you if they are SMR or not....... wait...what :' ....
If you are encountering performance that is not what you expected, please consider our products designed for intensive workloads. These may include our WD Red Pro or WD Gold drives, or perhaps an Ultrastar drive. Our customer care team is ready to help and can also determine which product might be best for you.
You shoulda bought the more premium product. Would you like red pro, wd gold or ultra star along with your original purchase of WD RED NAS to go with it???? :lol: :lol: :lol: ooo by the way no refunds on your wd red nas hdds :wink:
We know you entrust your data to our products, and we don’t take that lightly. If you have purchased a WD Red drive, please call our customer care if you are experiencing performance or any other technical issues. We will have options for you. We are here to help.
there are few HDD brands to pick from, we are not worried in the least. And we don't care if you were conned :lol: :lol: Anything other than a class action lawsuit, we don't give hoot about

Image
By Western Digital
By a bunch of aholes and trolls :roll:
Translation :? just use the memes but in the context of this situation (saves me the trouble to photoshop edit :lol: ), but you get the gist of it :(


also what may have flewn right under radar, was the fact how wd red nas had switched to SMR silently. hence why only some WD RED NAS (the newer batches???)were SMR but not others (the older stock afaik). A switcheroo tactic :roll:

I remind you, both are WD RED NAS, just a different product code. Most people only read "WD RED NAS, X capacity". They don't quite check "##EFAX", "##EFRX. But even if they checked the product specification, there was NO MENTION of this change being SMR !!!! because nobody expected them to pull this sleazy stunt. But now we know :roll:
this only affects WD##EFAX models; (EFRX are unaffected)
Western Digital Model Number Decoder
WD's model number format simplifies inventory management for distributors and system manufacturers/ Capacity points are key to this format

Image
https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/co ... r_decoder/


So based on that, what does ##EFAX tell you whether it is SMR or not? especially when compared to ##EFRX which is CMR.

IT DOESN'T !!! and THATS THE POINT !!!! of why this is essentially a scam :roll: not even the product specification page mentions SMR either afaik. or there wouldn't have been as this much outrage, because not even the fine print has this info. and even directly inquiring WD about SMR or not came back with a "we are not allowed to tell you reply". Especially for hdds marketed as "WD Red NAS" for NAS usage




TLDR: this is what some amazon reviewer pointed out for WD RED NAS (WD##EFAX) which sums it up, why WD RED NAS is no longer a recommended HDD for NAS by myself and others
Pros: NOTHING.

Cons: Beware of WD shaddy tactics. They are trying hard not to say this is in fact a SMR drive. It's a piece of S drive not suitable for NAS usage or RAID.

Avoid at all costs. EFRX was the CMR version but it was replaced by this cheap unreliable variant.

Overall Review: Do not buy.

*update

okay guess we can apply this to all the HDD brands now that they're all in on it apparently
https://www.techspot.com/news/84914-wd- ... rives.html

Image
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:00 pm, edited 22 times in total.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
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