My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

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Yippym
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My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Yippym » Wed May 13, 2020 9:08 pm

Here is my experience with the new QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch, for anyone is planning to utilise the switch with pfSense.

Image
First Impression on the QNAP-Guardian Smart Switch QGD-1600P – Part 1 https://poyu.co.uk/2020/05/05/first-imp ... 0p-part-1/

Installing the QNAP QGD-1600P into the cabinet – Part 2 https://poyu.co.uk/2020/05/12/installin ... et-part-2/

Image
pfSense on the QNAP QGD-1600P – Part 3 https://poyu.co.uk/2020/05/12/pfsense-o ... 0p-part-3/

The device should be faster than the Netgate XG-7100 1U, considering it has a newer CPU which is rated faster on the QNAP QGD-1600P. But running it in VM I'm not sure how much of a overhead it does for performance. I'm currently getting full speed on my 300mb/50mb internet connection.

In the future I'm going to test whether the device can support 32GB, as I've seen Intel J4105 - Odroid-H2 supporting 32GB RAM https://wiki.odroid.com/odroid-h2/hardw ... am_modules.

Geekbench score are:
Geekbench 4 Single 1930 / Multi 5435 https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/15460132
Geekbench 5 Single 423/ Multi 1261 https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/2037017
Last edited by Yippym on Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

P3R
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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by P3R » Thu May 14, 2020 7:21 am

Yippym wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 9:08 pm
Here is my experience with the new QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch, for anyone is planning to utilise the switch with pfSense.

First Impression on the QNAP-Guardian Smart Switch QGD-1600P – Part 1 https://poyu.co.uk/2020/05/05/first-imp ... 0p-part-1/
Installing the QNAP QGD-1600P into the cabinet – Part 2 https://poyu.co.uk/2020/05/12/installin ... et-part-2/
pfSense on the QNAP QGD-1600P – Part 3 https://poyu.co.uk/2020/05/12/pfsense-o ... 0p-part-3/
A comment on your disk configuration. When selecting disk configuration for a critical infrastructure device like a firewall/router I think it's good to prioritize reliability. I can't find a TBW-value for the SSDs you've chosen but my guess is it's at the low end as TBW isn't specified and the product seem to be oriented toward normal laptop/desktop usage. Also you choose RAID 0 which will bring this entire functionality to a halt as soon as either disk fail and it will remain down for a complete reinstallation of the NAS. That's the reason RAID 1 is recommended in all 2-bay Qnaps and even more so if internet-connectivity depend on the reliability of the Qnap
The device should be faster than the Netgate XG-7100 1U, considering it has a newer CPU which is rated faster on the QNAP QGD-1600P.
But the difference is very small, isn't it? It looks like around 10% here (with very few samples though so the margin for error is high).
Edit: please note that in the months since I wrote the above about CPU performance the Celeron J4115 have received more samples which have changed the relation to be very different from the 10% I mention. The Atom C3558 still only have a single sample though so things could change more. It's probably better to disregard the above link and my comment about it. I'm sorry for the confusion. :cry:

More important for pfSense is that the server grade Atom C3558 support Intel Quickassist, which I doubt the desktop Celeron J4115 do. That will probably affect performance as well.
But running it in VM I'm not sure how much of a overhead it does for performance.
I don't know for sure but my feeling is that it's more than 10%.
I'm currently getting full speed on my 300mb/50mb internet connection.
Yes I would hope so. :lol:

Even the 9 year old Atom D2700 in my cold spare physical pfSense can manage at least 800-900 Mbit/sec in both directions on my gigabit internet connection.
In the future I'm going to test whether the device can support 32GB, as I've seen Intel J4105 - Odroid-H2 supporting 32GB RAM https://wiki.odroid.com/odroid-h2/hardw ... am_modules
Wow! :-0 Why would you need that much RAM in a firewall/router? Even with some lost on the virtualization I don't know understand why you would need more than 8 GB.

I give my pfSense VM 4 GB but it will easily run on 1 or 2 GB.

It's a nice write-up you have done. I think it will be useful for many people interested in the QGD-1600P :!:
Last edited by P3R on Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

Yippym
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Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:49 am

Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Yippym » Thu May 14, 2020 8:55 am

P3R wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:21 am
A comment on your disk configuration. When selecting disk configuration for a critical infrastructure device like a firewall/router I think it's good to prioritize reliability. I can't find a TBW-value for the SSDs you've chosen but my guess is it's at the low end as TBW isn't specified and the product seem to be oriented toward normal laptop/desktop usage. Also you choose RAID 0 which will bring this entire functionality to a halt as soon as either disk fail and it will remain down for a complete reinstallation of the NAS. That's the reason RAID 1 is recommended in all 2-bay Qnaps and even more so if internet-connectivity depend on the reliability of the Qnap
I recommend people to do RAID-1 on my post, I did this RAID-0 cause the SSD are throw away. I'm planning to minimise the write by using the RAM Disk setting.
System->Advanced->Miscellaneous->RAM Disk Settings. This will collate the data in the RAM and then store the data on the storage drive in interval of 4 hours.
P3R wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:21 am
But the difference is very small, isn't it? It looks like around 10% here (with very few samples though so the margin for error is high). More important for pfSense is that the server grade Atom C3558 support Intel Quickassist, which I doubt the desktop Celeron J4115 do. That will probably affect performance as well.
Though I didn't state it was massive performance, just that it should be better or faster performance if only Intel pull their finger out and go out. These small increment of performance is silly when AMD is right ahead of them. Though in truth I do not know if the J4115 is a Gemini Lake or Gemini Lake Refresh, so I cannot see what instruction set it has. The Intel Quickassist looks very interesting, but I assume it doesn't have this ability.
P3R wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:21 am
I don't know for sure but my feeling is that it's more than 10%.
Guess it just balance itself out, comparing to the Netgate
P3R wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:21 am
Yes I would hope so. :lol:

Even the 9 year old Atom D2700 in my cold spare physical pfSense can manage at least 800-900 Mbit/sec in both directions on my gigabit internet connection.
My first pfSense test, didn't know what to expect. Planning to upgrade the connection to 900mb, we will see though. Got to say I'm impressed with pfSense so far, I've installed Haproxy (bye bye docker), ACME, ntopng. I've been using an Synology router previously so I'm late into the pfSense crowd.

P3R wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:21 am
Wow! :-0 Why would you need that much RAM in a firewall/router? Even with some lost on the virtualization I don't know understand why you would need more than 8 GB.

I give my pfSense VM 4 GB but it will easily run on 1 or 2 GB.
It's not on my major list to upgrade the RAM to 32GB, happy with 8GB but there are lots of people interested upgrading RAM when visiting my site. It nice to have more additional RAM for an plex server instance, have pfSense utilise more RAM for caching, and give more memory for Netflow. But yeah overkill, but as a techie why not?
P3R wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 7:21 am
It's a nice write-up you have done. I think it will be useful for many people interested in the QGD-1600P :!:
Thanks P3R, just letting people understand the use case for this device will help people get onboard the QGD-1600P. Wouldn't mind if QNAP makes a 24 port version with front interchangeable drive bays *hint* *hint*. I've contacted QNAP about the unusable rack ear, I be getting a replacement on the way.

Yippym
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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Yippym » Fri May 15, 2020 10:31 pm

Just updated the post on how to fix the slow upload speed, you must enable "Disable hardware checksum offload". Otherwise you be scratching your head why pfSense performs so badly.


Yippym
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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Yippym » Tue May 26, 2020 10:07 pm

Got the ear rack replacement from QNAP, works fine now with the RAIL-B02 rail mounting kit.
20200526_131101.jpg
additional images:
https://poyu.co.uk/2020/05/26/qnap-qgd- ... ar-mounts/
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Yippym
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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Yippym » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:45 pm

Just to let people know that you can install 32GB on the QNAP QGD-1600P with the Intel J4115 CPU, checkout here:
https://poyu.co.uk/2020/06/09/qnap-qgd- ... gb-of-ram/

The 8GB Gemini Lake max memory on Intel website is not true.... :-0
Image

I was reaching my maximum memory usage so I thought I upgrade the system, 8GB should be plenty for many just thought I tell ya there's more headroom.

P3R
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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by P3R » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:39 am

Yippym wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:45 pm
The 8GB Gemini Lake max memory on Intel website is not true....
What is true is that neither Intel nor Qnap support anything above 8 GB. That it may work is a different thing.

If you run into any issues, Qnap may deny you support unless you restore the system to a supported configuration. This have happened so always keep the original RAM in case you should ever need support from Qnap is my advice.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

Yippym
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Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:49 am

Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Yippym » Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:02 pm

P3R wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:39 am
What is true is that neither Intel nor Qnap support anything above 8 GB. That it may work is a different thing.

If you run into any issues, Qnap may deny you support unless you restore the system to a supported configuration. This have happened so always keep the original RAM in case you should ever need support from Qnap is my advice.
While I understand that manufactures states this and that, they just cannot test everything that is available doesn't mean it doesn't work just that you on your own if you have issues. Currently for me the Switch is running perfectly fine with the additional of RAM, it was fairly easy to do so you could just buy a 4GB model and upgrade it yourself.

Not to worry, I know the drill. The old RAM is essential for RMA and any warranty, forgot to write it down in my post.

The inspiration of the 32GB of RAM upgrade came from the ODRIOD-H2, which is stated on the website that the J4105 is capable of running 32GB of RAM.
https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-h2/

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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by P3R » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:53 pm

Yippym wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 5:02 pm
While I understand that manufactures states this and that, they just cannot test everything that is available...
Of course Intel have tested more than 8 GB RAM and know very well how it work.

The reason that they don't want to support it could be that they know it's unstable under some specific conditions, it could be marketing segmentation/politics or something else that I can't think of. We will never know, but the non-supported message is set in stone unless they change their minds, which is unlikely to happen.
Not to worry, I know the drill. The old RAM is essential for RMA and any warranty, forgot to write it down in my post.
Actually I didn't worry about you as you seem to be knowledgeable.

I posted here as a warning to those less experienced users that come to read your thread but doesn't "know the drill" and understand that there can be a huge difference between "work" and "is supported".

Also, you said "...Intel website is not true..." which is incorrect. Of course the Intel website tell the truth because it state what they support, not what may work but be unsupported.

Qnap specify the operating temperature for your QGD-1600P to be 0°C to 45°C (32°F to 113°F). It will most likely work at -1°C or 46°C as well. That doesn't mean Qnap are lying, only that they don't guarantee it to work flawless outside that range. Intel do the same with their max 8 GB limit.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:52 pm

yippy i spotted this, thought you may be interested for comparing notes on the qgd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIkXQFu4qfo
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Yippym
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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Yippym » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:12 am

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:52 pm
yippy i spotted this, thought you may be interested for comparing notes on the qgd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIkXQFu4qfo
Thanks Moogle, they also got a non video review https://www.servethehome.com/our-switch ... 0p-review/

There seems to be a new QNAP Guardian models that be coming out soon without HDMI output.

https://marketing.qnap.com/resource/qgd-1602p/
QGD-1602P with C3558 or C3758

Something tells me it be expensive.....
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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Yippym » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:42 am

How to setup softflowd package in pfSense to connect to your QNAP with Docker, this will help avoid putting load on your switch.

Though the report that it output is super detailed, which would mean you might need to have a lot of RAM and storage to be able to handle your use case.

https://poyu.co.uk/2020/07/12/using-sof ... ch-docker/

Image

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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Yippym » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:24 am

How to assign VLAN in your QNAP QGD-1600P with pfSense, the way it works is that the Virtual Switch auto filter the VLAN. Assigning the interface on pfSense with VLAN detection is all you need.
https://poyu.co.uk/2020/08/16/qnap-qgd- ... h-pfsense/

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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by SFX Group » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:48 pm

Yippym wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 9:08 pm
I'm going to test whether the device can support 32GB, as I've seen Intel J4105 - Odroid-H2 supporting 32GB RAM
It cant, CPU only supports 8Gb (link from Intel), With Intels support for RAM, its not about what's around to test, they are publishing the amount of ram the CPU can address, hence why you see sizes like 2Tb for the Intel Xeons, when most boards may only do 512Gb of RAM. The fact this CPU only supports 8Gb is likely the reason they moved to the Intel Atom which will do 64Gb.

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... 0-ghz.html

Ive seen support issue on sizes for Intel complete systems (like Intel NNUC) they are more based on what RAM can be tested at the time of release, however on checking the CPU it may list 64Gb, but the Intel NUC system may say only 16Gb (as they could only find 8Gb sticks at that time).


Wasnt PFSense supposed to be via the Container Station and not Virtualization Station? That would lighten the load alot.
Many Thanks

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Re: My experience with the QNAP QGD-1600P PoE Switch

Post by Yippym » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:33 am

SFX Group wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:48 pm
Yippym wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 9:08 pm
I'm going to test whether the device can support 32GB, as I've seen Intel J4105 - Odroid-H2 supporting 32GB RAM
It cant, CPU only supports 8Gb (link from Intel), With Intels support for RAM, its not about what's around to test, they are publishing the amount of ram the CPU can address, hence why you see sizes like 2Tb for the Intel Xeons, when most boards may only do 512Gb of RAM. The fact this CPU only supports 8Gb is likely the reason they moved to the Intel Atom which will do 64Gb.

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... 0-ghz.html

Ive seen support issue on sizes for Intel complete systems (like Intel NNUC) they are more based on what RAM can be tested at the time of release, however on checking the CPU it may list 64Gb, but the Intel NUC system may say only 16Gb (as they could only find 8Gb sticks at that time).


Wasnt PFSense supposed to be via the Container Station and not Virtualization Station? That would lighten the load alot.
Works fine with 32GB, please can you look at my post and see, I've checked the controller and it says 32GB max capacity. There is no 'CAN'T, it works!!!!
https://poyu.co.uk/2020/06/09/qnap-qgd- ... gb-of-ram/

You are not going to have the full flexibility of handling all the network adapters with Container Station, I recommend Virtualization Station. I don't think you can assign multiple networks with pfSense on Container Station (which I didn't think is useful for my use case.), so you will have trouble assigning VLAN, and isolating ports.

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