Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

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hhman
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Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by hhman »

I have a vintage TS-412 in home use, dead since this morning. Should have substituted it last year but life happened.
This morning all four leds are blinking red, fan is running only slowly. The manual for red leds among the possible causes lists fan error or hardware error. I hope the disks (2 2-disk mirrors) are still good. Cold boot didn’t help.
Possible approaches I thought of:
1. number and remove disks, air out carefully (with fan blocked), remount. Not much hope there.
2. have it repaired somewhere. Not much hope here either.
3. Get a 4-bay Replacement NAS instead of a two bay as I planned, two new disks (Ironwolf pro 8TB), configure, load one old mirror at a time, transfer data.

Any suggestions? Will a new Qnap read my old mirror disks?

Unrelated, is there a preferred import order based on kind of data? I have some folders with almost a hundred thousand small files which won’t ever change (a thousand of my CD’s I ripped years ago to flac and put into storage, stuff like that) and others with bigger files subject to continuous change (video files, newer cellphone DCIM sync…). Is it ok to put the small static files first instead of last, so the more dynamic part won’t fragment around those?

Thanks
FSC830
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Re: Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by FSC830 »

No, will not work!
A migration to a compatible new NAS works only if the old disks are used (you cant mix them with new ones).
So you can proceed in that way:
1. Buy a new compatible NAS, https://www.qnap.com/en/nas-migration, put all 4 disks in the NAS.
2. Backup your settings and data to an external device (which is always recommended!)
3. Shutdown NAS, replace old disks with new disks, start from scratch and restore settings/data.

If you after step 2. prefer to replace the disks one-by-one consider that you are always bound to the legacy limits, i.e. capacity, no pools, no snapshots.
I do not recommend staying at such old staff.

Regards
hhman
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Re: Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by hhman »

First: Thanks! That was fast and I didn't really hope for an answer beside "risky, get a professional if you care for your data".
Second: Wait, either I'm not understanding you or some snag I should pay attention to, or I didn't explain myself.
I had 2 mirrors of two disks.
I want to get to a new NAS, one two-disk mirror, new hardware only. The old NAS seems dead, disk hopefully is ok. So I can't backup the data without a compatible NAS, which is the goal anyway.
I don't have external disks big enough handy either. However I can get a four-bay modell, so I have two bays available for one old mirror couple.

What I don't understand: you seem to suggest to start with new NAS and old disks ONLY. Start with old disks on new NAS (because the NAS is compatible). Use this config for external backup. Then start completely from scratch with new disks, import data from external backup. Did I get this right?

My idea was::
1 get new compatible NAS, two new disks big enough for everything.
then probably:
2a start from scratch with new nas, 2 new disks, no data, configure from scratch (users are very few, access structure very simple, admin adults kids, passwords can be reset but really I have those anyway). Put one old mirror (two disks) into remaining bays, import data, recreate shares (all manually). Repeat for the second old two-disk mirror. Remove, stay with the new hardware only. Reconfig a couple of cloud backups I had running.
or maybe 2b start with two new disks and one old mirror (the main OS one), import configuration during initial OS config if this is possible, import data from that mirror. Remove and repeat data import with the second old mirror. Note: import config and data, NOT mirror the almost 10 year old volume.

How does that seem? I wouldn't need external backup media I don't have.
Additional question: since those were mirrors I think I could insert only one disk of the mirror into the new NAS, keep the other disk offline in case of Murphy?
FSC830
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Re: Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by FSC830 »

Without a backup all steps are risky, no question. But ok, do we drop the backup discussion... :wink:

My assumption was that a TS-412 is replaced with a new 4-bay NAS.

2a might will work, did no do so myself. Unsure, if the old raid1 could be successfully imported. :'
And yes, data can be copied from old raidgroup to new disks. Then remove old RG and add the second mirror pair/disk.
Repeat all steps and finally remove the second mirror RG as well.
All with the prerequisite that old disk rg can be recovered.

2b afaik will definitly not work! During migration you cant mix old and new disks. For migration only the old disks can be used (at least one mirror pair).
The OS is always divided at all disks in NAS, so there is no "main OS" and "sub OS".

If only one disk of the mirror is used the raid group should be known, but is "degraded". As long as this disk survives, all is fine.
With a disk from old NAS (Legacy firmware) and raid1 it should also be possible to read the data at a Linux host (as a fallback in worst case).
You need to do some manual steps (i.e. mounting the correct partition), but it is possible.
Newer NAS with HAL firmware putting much more obstacles in that way.

At, finally nevertheless some consideration about backup (I know.. see first sentence).
My guess: if you do not use a backup as yet, there is also no UPS in place?
Consider what happens if NAS dies (like now) and disks are broken too. Can be easily happen by overvoltage (thunderstorm, AC malfunction, ...).
So all data is lost!
When buying a new NAS with new disks a USB disk with capacity for the most important data is a good choice.

Regards
hhman
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Re: Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by hhman »

Thanks FCS830 for your nice comment. I'll try to go with 2a and maybe I'll get an external loaner disk or disks somewhere for at least temporary data backup.
As for your questions: the problem here is money.
I do have an UPS for the NAS/router/Switch group, and an entry in calendar for exchanging the batteries after 3 years when new, then after 5 years (10 years long life UPS batteries) and then UPS again after 5 (total 13 years if murphy didn't happen before that, get only good stuff).
I have two different cloud syncs of the really important stuff (yes I know, is not the same as a real backup because ransomware, long startup and download times, no multiple cycles with deduplication and so on).

The reason I didn't substitute this NAS yet was money, so if now I have to get a 4 bay instead of 2 bay I'd like to not buy also an additional external 6TB disk for the backup. In any case for creating that backup I have to get the disks running somehow which would use the same new NAS as in step 2A.
The right way would be having at least one external disk big enough (no tape drives at home), connect it at least once a month for a full sync, keep it offsite in the meantime. Yes I do feel rather bad for not having that one and it has been on my todo IT spending list for years.
FSC830
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Re: Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by FSC830 »

hhman wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:15 pm ...
As for your questions: the problem here is money.
...
Where not? 8)
A cloud backup is at least better than none.
When processing 2a put only one disk of the old raid1 pairs into NAS.
As you mentioned: if anything goes wrong you can start from scratch a migration (removing all disks from NAS) with the remaining disk from the mirror pair.

If doing so, you need to connect the disks from the failing task to a PC and remove all partitions (formatting is not necessary).
Then you can use the disks again for the NAS.
If you are not removing the partitions the disks will be recognized as "already containing a NAS signature" and raise some difficulties in ongoing.
But hopefully this is not needed.
If anything goes wrong please ask prior before taking steps which make all worse. :mrgreen:

Regards
hhman
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Re: Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by hhman »

Here again, took me some time to get the hardware and mount it.
I have a new TS-451-D2 running 5.0.0.2055 Build 20220531, a couple of ST12000NE0008 in Raid1 and two empty slots.

In my TS-312 I had a Raid1 in slot 1+2 and another one in slot 3+4.
I tried putting old Disk 3 into Slot 3. The disk is found with good health. However Attach and Recover Storage Pool doesn't find anything. Same for old disk 2. Logs for old disk 2 is this:
16:11:33 [Storage & Snapshots] Starting adding existing storage from free disks.
16:11:35 [Storage & Snapshots] Failed to scan free disks for existing storage. One or more RAID group member disks are missing.
16:11:38 [Storage & Snapshots] Finished adding existing storage from free disks.
16:20:03 [Storage & Snapshots] Starting adding existing storage from free disks.
16:20:04 [Storage & Snapshots] Failed to scan free disks for existing storage. One or more RAID group member disks are missing.
16:20:08 [Storage & Snapshots] Finished adding existing storage from free disks.
16:27:18 [Storage & Snapshots] Starting adding existing storage from free disks.
16:27:20 [Storage & Snapshots] Failed to scan free disks for existing storage. One or more RAID group member disks are missing.
16:27:23 [Storage & Snapshots] Finished adding existing storage from free disks.

So, what am I missing? More importantly, what should be my next stop with minimal risk? Anything I can/should to from the new Nas?

Or the recovery route with an adapter, a Linux boot stick, try to mount the disk in linux and copy over the data from the old disk through network? My linux days are long gone (15 years last real use) but I suppose I could follow a guide for linux data recovery tools. Would you recommend any particular distribution or guide?
Thanks
dosborne
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Re: Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by dosborne »

Personally, since you have new (and old) hardware, I would reach out to QNAP support as they can potentially help mount and migrate your drives much more efficiently.
QNAP TS-563-16G 5x10TB Seagate Ironwolf HDD Raid-5 NIC: 2x1GB 1x10GbE
QNAP TS-231P-US 2x18TB Seagate Exos HDD Raid-1
[Deadbolt and General Ransomware Detection, Prevention, Recovery & MORE]
hhman
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Re: Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by hhman »

@dosborne, I did just that, thanks.
Support suggested to connect one of a drive to a pc (took me some time, have only notebooks handy, got an USB3 toaster-style disk adapter) and RTT R-Studio.
Even with the free windows version the disks (well... for now, one disk of mirror #2) can be seen and data can be extracted. There were no errors, no problems, just look into the correct partition (third one in my case). Of course pay attention to windows, when connecting the disk for every partition you get an error because it can't be read and an offer to format (NO!!).

I'm recoverying data right now.

Support also said that according to the list there was compatibilty between my old and new NAS, so I could have just put a mirror pair into the new NAS and copied over the data internally. However I already had tried that without luckk, maybe something else would have been needed on the NAS. But I didn't ask since I had a viable solution.
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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

hhman wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:09 pm I want to get to a new NAS, one two-disk mirror, new hardware only. The old NAS seems dead, disk hopefully is ok. So I can't backup the data without a compatible NAS, which is the goal anyway.
seems to be some confusion here as to what constitutes a proper backup

a backup is basically in place PRIOR to any tragedy striking, like what happened to u. plz read this :)
https://www.reddit.com/r/qnap/comments/ ... _a_backup/

So in a situation like urs, you would then recover from the backup. And this recovery could be on the problematic nas assuming it can be fixed with a simple reinitialization, or if not, then replacing it with another NAS and recover from the backup to it. It's that easy and simple.

But what you are doing right now is mcgyver last minute hail mary happy go lucky hope u can somehow magically recover your data. Hope it works out for you, but if your data is truly important, i would suggest for the next time, having a proper backup plan in place.

first identify the issue. the common issue is usually dying drives. usually to test for that, u would power down nas, pull the drives and test it on desktop pc using the hdd diagnostic tools to confirm if it's a bad drive issue. if the issue is something else, you have to go through the troubleshooting list. if you don't know how to troubleshoot, you can try asking here or pay an IT repair shop to check it out for you.

fyi, in the product page for your qnap nas, there is a manual you can download. it should be able to explain what the blinking leds indicate is the issue most of the time, so you can then narrow down the possible issue.
hhman wrote:
...
As for your questions: the problem here is money.
understandable, but then best live within your means. the cheapest backup i can recommend is something like an external usb hard drive like western digital or seagate, which you connect to the QNAP NAS, so using hybridbackupsync you can make a backup job to it (either automated or manually run, and frequency is up to you).

Think about how you can reduce your disk space usage. For example, for videos, rathers than h264, you can instead use h265/hevc for reduce file size savings for something acceptably similar in quality but less disk usage space required. Also rather than flacs, you can instead have AAC or OPUS (just make sure their sources were initially lossless from which they were re-encoded from). And to every now and then check you aren't storing duplicate files you may have not noticed.

when considering 2bay or 4bay, you can use this raid calculator when comparing raid1 and raid5. pay close attention to the usable space for your nas so you know how big a drive for the backup you need to get for it
https://www.qnap.com/en/selector/raid-selector
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hhman
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Re: Dead NAS recovery plan, is this ok?

Post by hhman »

Hi Moogle Stiltzkin,
everything you said is quite correct. For everybody maybe reading this BEFORE having a problem: understand it und apply an according strategy.

In this case maybe you didn't see the discussione above. I had a proper backup (nightly online sync and quarterly usb offline sync, even tested and QC properly and at regular occasions), but not for everything, only the important 30%. Since I suspected the old NAS died but all the discs were good at least an attempt at recover of the less important stuff was considered a nice to have.
The manual wasn't that usefull, because according to manual and compatibility list the old drives should have been readable by the new NAS (weren't). Support suggested the R-Studio route, of course once I understand the standard filesystem involved I could have also gone the windows driver way or simply linux, since I didn't want to recovery damaged or already deleted data anyway.

Thanks for your input anyway.
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