TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

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zuchiee
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by zuchiee »

This just happened to my 672xt 2 days ago, warranty ran out on 25/01/21 :( . Device wont power on, only a red light under the case on the mother board. I'm a little frustrated being only 2-3 months out of warranty.
KL888
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by KL888 »

I got my TVS872XT back from repairs today. The motherboard had to be replaced. I think QNAP are aware there was a design fault in the earlier TVS 872 XT, which they now have apparently improved their MB's.
kinglouie4556
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by kinglouie4556 »

KL888 wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:36 pm which they now have apparently improved their MB's.
How can you tell? Which firmware was your motherboard on after receiving your unit back?
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infotecmb
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by infotecmb »

kinglouie4556 wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:41 pm
KL888 wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:36 pm which they now have apparently improved their MB's.
How can you tell? Which firmware was your motherboard on after receiving your unit back?
firmware.jpg
You can see the Firmware version on LCD Display.

But we do not know the hardware revision of the motherboard.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
KL888
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by KL888 »

hi, well the repair person said it was an updated MB, that's all he said. I haven't looked into the FW at all, as my 40TB are doing a fsck, taken almost 2 weeks so far. But QNAP have been helpful so far.
KL888
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by KL888 »

zuchiee wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:52 pm This just happened to my 672xt 2 days ago, warranty ran out on 25/01/21 :( . Device wont power on, only a red light under the case on the mother board. I'm a little frustrated being only 2-3 months out of warranty.
Sounds like exactly my issue on my 872XT, they had to change the motherboard. Mine was also 1 month past the 2 yr warranty period.
stratus
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by stratus »

Count and me Unfortunately yesterday after normal shutdown the nas does not power up.I live in Greece and I bought it before 1 year from German Amazon.I sent message to the seller and I wait for the response.
ytene
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by ytene »

Same problem with my 672XT...

On Sunday 25th March I performed a reboot and firmware update of my TS-670, then attempted the same thing on my TS-672XT. The reboot started and the system went "down" but did not recover. When I went to check it, the machine was completely dead. The sheer number of units failing would appear to be a bit of a major issue. Shame QNAP haven't said something publicly yet.
TVS-672XT/32Gb with 6xWD Red 12Tb [RAID6] + 2 Cold Spare
TS-670/16Gb with 6xWD Red 12Tb [RAID6] + 2 Cold Spare
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Swedishfishx2
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by Swedishfishx2 »

ytene wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:24 pm The sheer number of units failing would appear to be a bit of a major issue. Shame QNAP haven't said something publicly yet.
Maybe it's a cultural thing but I honestly do not believe this "silence" is doing QNAP any good from a customer point of view. I really do understand it's not a great situation from a Public Relations perspective but the silence is doing some really harmful things to the QNAP brand right now. That's my take on it, anyhow. I am both talking about this hardware issue, but also about the ongoing "Ransomware" plague hitting us all pretty da** hard.

Don't get me wrong, I was still within warranty when my TVS-872XT started to act up on me - and got it replace (even if the process overall took about two months to go through all the steps of trouble shooting). I was really glad that I got my unit replaced. However, since this silence is like a wet cold blanket over all this - can I trust that my unit will work another week, another year or what? Will another back-door show itself as open for more ransomware in the near future? This is about my trust in QNAP and silence is not the answer.
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by P3R »

Swedishfishx2 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:35 pm I really do understand it's not a great situation from a Public Relations perspective but the silence is doing some really harmful things to the QNAP brand right now. That's my take on it, anyhow. I am both talking about this hardware issue, but also about the ongoing "Ransomware" plague hitting us all pretty da** hard.
With the ransomware there's a lot to be wished for but in my opinion that's mostly in actions and more importantly in future changes of the security culture within the company, maybe also in market communications.

With this hardware issue there's not much to say. Systems within warranty are covered and this is exactly the situation that warranties are intended for. I can't come to think of a single thing they could say that wouldn't worry users with working units (which is a large majority) and/or lead to huge costs and/or being sued (which is also extremely costly). What do you expect them to say that would satisfy you but not be very costly for the company?
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
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Swedishfishx2
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by Swedishfishx2 »

P3R wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:14 pm
Swedishfishx2 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:35 pm I really do understand it's not a great situation from a Public Relations perspective but the silence is doing some really harmful things to the QNAP brand right now. That's my take on it, anyhow. I am both talking about this hardware issue, but also about the ongoing "Ransomware" plague hitting us all pretty da** hard.
What do you expect them to say that would satisfy you but not be very costly for the company?
Well, I will absolutely agree it's a tricky situation for QNAP and there is probably a very narrow path to pursue on that ridge of communication - the risk of telling the market the wrong thing. On the other hand, that's what companies like QNAP should be prepared for. In a multi-billion industry, you plan for the worst and then you execute the plan while communicating and being honest at the same time. Silence seems like sticking their heads in the sand while the world is burning to the ground around you.

Just to focus on this specific hardware issue with the TVS-X72XT product line. Not all affected find their way to this forum. However, looking at what Bob Zelin said some time ago it just seemed that even if the large majority of users have a working TVS-X72XT - actual numbers of faulty units appeared to be considerable higher than normal in the industry. It just seemed that he is the only person with that overall perspective and contact with a larger user base than anyone else I am aware of.

There is a company called Apple that is reasonable good at admitting failures and then do something about them, taking the consumer brand trust very seriously. Ok, it's not all gold but https://support.apple.com/en-lamr/service-programs often reach way beyond warranty and I have put a few things through those programs over the years. It's obviously a cost but then again what is the QNAP brand worth when the trust is at stake?

I honestly do not think It's about me having a clear answer on what QNAP should say to their customer base in this matter - it's really about the trust we as consumers have in the brand. Right now, the trust is not exactly high and I am sure the "silent treatment" of the market is not doing any good.
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by P3R »

Swedishfishx2 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:58 pm There is a company called Apple that is reasonable good at admitting failures and then do something about them, taking the consumer brand trust very seriously. Ok, it's not all gold but https://support.apple.com/en-lamr/service-programs often reach way beyond warranty...
Yes that's of course what everyone wish they should say but that's exactly what I meant would be very costly. If Qnap had thought that the good-will loss of not covering out of warranty devices would cost them more than what a warranty-extension would cost them, they would of course do it and they would communicate it loudly!

Also in my opinion Apple isn't the best comparison here either. They have very high priced products intended to be in the high-end segment so the fall and the cost of bad-will would be much higher for them. It's also probably one of the most profitable companys in the world so they could easily carry the cost and still be very profitable.
I honestly do not think It's about me having a clear answer on what QNAP should say to their customer base in this matter...
I don't see how you can demand them to say something and then not come with a suggestion. Yes you had one suggestion and I responded above. Unless they have something useful to say I think they're better off by keeping their mouths shut as in the saying "It’s better to appear silly and keep one’s mouth shut than to open it and dispel any doubt".
Right now, the trust is not exactly high and I am sure the "silent treatment" of the market is not doing any good.
In my opinion the ransomware situation is the thing that could really affect them and there they definitely should be more vocal about but I'm not sure that now is the right time. Especially not when a part of the ransomware problem have been their questionable marketing communication previously. I agree that when they have all the exact details, the best damage control would be to come clean with it.

A few hundred faulty NASes, many of which are covered within warranty, isn't significant enough to hurt them. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that the problem is insignificant to the customers buying these products. I would be sad about it myself and if it was just outside of my warranty, I would of course be furious and hate Qnap forever.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
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rafale
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by rafale »

with this problem looming, I am not going to update firmware on my NAS any time soon... let alone that auto update and reboot nonsense they implemented in the last firmware by default.

QNAP also charges a hefty premium on these units which I really consider as high end NAS. Granted they cater to a large spectrum of the NAS market but these units are not so different from Apple ones.
The least QNAP should say is that they are investigating and that there is potentially a batch of bad motherboard. Better yet, they should recall these units if they actually identified the batch. The cost of losing a bunch of customers for their high end units for a pretty premium or a class action lawsuit is much greater than a warranty extension. Between this silence treatment, the obvious trend of trying to get us to pay for licensing/subscriptions for open source software re-implementation on their hardware, and the erratic behavior of adding questionable auto-update functionalities to their very questionable QA'd firmware, I am pretty certain that my next NAS will not be a QNAP and I am one of these old, high end leaning customers...
Server: TVS-872XT i9 9900 ES, 64GB DDR4 2666MHz, intel X550-T2, Asus RTX3070 Dual OC (On pico PSU), 2x Phison E12 1TB M.2, 4x Micron 5210 7.68TB, 4x WD Purple 4TB
Backup NAS: TS-473 20GB DDR4 2400MHz, Mellanox ConnectX3, 2x Samsung PM871b 256GB M.2, 4x WD Red 8TB
Former units: TVS-1282, TS-871, TS-469
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by P3R »

rafale wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 11:36 pm...let alone that auto update and reboot nonsense they implemented in the last firmware by default.
Auto update of the firmware have been around for years. I don't want it so I don't have it enabled. They may have made it default on when the auto update feature was implemented (I don't remember) but the same as many other defaults I disagree with, I simply change it if it's not to my liking.

What have changed in QTS 4.5.3.1652 is that they now have
  1. Much more flexible options for the scheduling. In addition to only have a daily schedule they now also have the option of weekly and monthly schedules.
  2. Two different firmware levels to choose from, so in addition to always installing the latest firmware as soon as it is publishd they now also have the possibility to only auto install what they call "Recommended Versions". I don't know what they mean by that but I have two theories; either it mean that only firmwares that have been out for a while and is known to be relatively bug-free will be considered "Recommended" (typically the strategy I use manually today) or that they will start releasing firmware updates with bug fixes only (recommended) and separate feature update releases (Latest).
  3. They made it default on for "Recommended Versions". There's also a note saying "If auto update is enabled, all running.... so it's obviously possibly to disable it and I would assume that is done by unticking the only selected option and push the button named Apply.
1 and 2 are in my opinion great improvements to the auto-update features and I think that default on for "Recommended Versions" is probably the best choice for the large majority of users. Qnap have insecure defaults that I have criticised them heavily for since way back but this default on is intended to secure the systems and I think with the firmware differentiation that they now added I think that it sound like a good idea. Us more experienced user can simply disable it. I don't really understand the drama about this.
QNAP also charges a hefty premium on these units which I really consider as high end NAS.
Yes it's high end for home users and small businesses but it's not really a high end storage device. I wouldn't really consider Qnap a premium brand in the same way Apple are but that's subjective so it's pointless to discuss.
The least QNAP should say is that they are investigating and that there is potentially a batch of bad motherboard.
Such an announcement would at the same time mean they admit that there is a problem with the products so that would immediately open up for legal actions against them. THAT announcement could become really expensive. I would say that the much more clever thing is to do the investigation without talking about it in advance. I think that they have probably already done that.
Better yet, they should recall these units if they actually identified the batch.
Yes that's a possibility if it really is a bad batch of a couple of hundred units but if they can't pinpoint a specific smaller batch? Recall all 25k (my wild guess) units for a preventive motherboard replacement when the problem will only affect a couple of hundred units (and half of them will already be covered by warranty)?

In my experience, recalls are very rare in the IT industry simply because they cost much more than to handle it through select warranty extensions or on a case by case basis (if the company have decided that the bad-will is worse than the cost).
The cost of losing a bunch of customers for their high end units for a pretty premium or a class action lawsuit is much greater than a warranty extension.
I agree that a class acion law suit may be more expensive but they aren't that common are they? Also if there really was an upcoming class action thing, Qnap could simply start negotiating and reach an agreement. That way they wouldn't throw out a lot of money only to eliminate the risk, but only pay when it was necessary.

How do you know that it's a much greater loss to lose some customers over this? What estimated numbers did you use when you came to that conclusion?

Qnap of course know the costs for all alternatives much, much better than any of us here so why do you think they haven't announced a warranty extension? Is it that you think they're okay with losing money because of stubbornness or is it that they're terrible at math or something else?
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
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rafale
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Re: TVS-872XT dead after normal shutdown...

Post by rafale »

@P3R

A bit too long of a post to answer everything but I will just answer you on two things:
The auto update popped up about a year ago and was disabled by default. I thought it was insanity at the time but it became enabled by default on this last version.
It is insane as I posted elsewhere because IMHO there is absolutely no use case for the firmware update on a machine as complex as the QNAP to ever update and reboot on its own. The reboot process alone takes 15-20mins and for even a home user like me it is something which needs to be planned and watched over. The frequency of failure is high. I have almost never experienced an update which did not require some sort of intervention either to virtual station because the VMs don't shut down before the system reboot, instead they "pause" so when VS comes back times are completely out of whack. Some mandatory App update not downloading properly because the firmware update did not include them and upon reboot the app can't start... when the NAS relies on the App to access the internet the NAS is screwed... etc... I pass some more surprising ones. This is even without talking about the quality of the firmwares themselves or this very problem here... Apparently the unit just dies after a reboot. The solution should be to never update and reboot... Auto-update of the firmware is a dangerous feature... much more dangerous than whatever it is trying to fix and IMHO shouldn't exist. As for the recommended Vs. latest, who decides? and how? Many of these updates include a BIOS update. No user should ever upgrade without reading the release notes and decide accordingly. The old school recommendation is to not update unless you find something in the release note which addresses a problem you have and I would say this would be the best recommendation I could give to most common users. Auto-update apps? maybe. Firmware? Absolutely not.

I see you are a numbers person... touche. I don't have the numbers since I don't work for QNAP and you already know that. I probably should not have spoken for QNAP but I will only speak for myself. I have recommended and even gifted a number of QNAP to friends and families. Over the past 2 years, It was well over $15K of purchases I influenced and made myself. I am regretting it now and it will certainly no longer happen. Based on the number of report and people I read here on on reddit the impact of this behavior can be multiplied by at least 200. Add the second level of negative publicity through word of mouth and can model the minimum short term cost of this decision. Is it worth spending the $200/motherboard to replace the 200 people affected?

This post is about specifically about the 872XT which is a $2000+ NAS. It isn't in anyway cheap and very Apple like. For comparison I just bought a 24 bay 32 core (7nm) Epyc 7452 HP server with a 800W PSU for little less than what the 872XT which is an 8 bay 4 core (14nm) 250W PSU sells for. I was happy to pay the hefty premium for the convenience but not to be milked over and over again afterwards though my main reason at the moment is that I can't afford the risk of the 872XT dying on me so I will be selling my QNAPs.
Server: TVS-872XT i9 9900 ES, 64GB DDR4 2666MHz, intel X550-T2, Asus RTX3070 Dual OC (On pico PSU), 2x Phison E12 1TB M.2, 4x Micron 5210 7.68TB, 4x WD Purple 4TB
Backup NAS: TS-473 20GB DDR4 2400MHz, Mellanox ConnectX3, 2x Samsung PM871b 256GB M.2, 4x WD Red 8TB
Former units: TVS-1282, TS-871, TS-469
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