How to equip and setup an 872XT...

[bokr71]

Hi,

I'll be amongst the first to pick up the new TVS-872XT-i5-16G when it arrives for sale. I need a bunch of TBs and want safety as well - my business/hobby depends on the data that'll reside on this NAS. I am a photographer and work with 75MB RAW files and 5-25GB MOV files, that I want to work with directly from the NAS...

So, I'll probably put the following into the 872XT:

- 6 x HGST HE10, 10TB HDDs - for the big volume, Raid6 for two-disk redundancy
- 2 x Samsung 970 Pro M.2 NVMe, 512GB - for caching, Raid1 for read/write cache

I'll connect the NAS to my existing Gigabit network, but utilize a Thunderbolt connection to my 2013 Mac Pro - hence, I'll use a T2 -> T3 cable.

Questions;

- Should I add 2 x Samsung 860 Pro SSDs in Raid1 for a fast volume, or will the HDD volume be plenty fast?
- If I added 2 x SSDs, I'd effectively have the parts for a 3-tier QTIER setup (HDD/SSD/NVMe). Would that be more beneficial than NVMe caching?

Any comments and/or suggestions are welcome!

Thanks in advance...

[P3R]

- Should I add 2 x Samsung 860 Pro SSDs in Raid1 for a fast volume, or will the HDD volume be plenty fast?

With two volumes you'll have the extra administration of moving data back and forth between volumes. Since you already have much faster SSDs in there, I would use them if this is what you want. That would also give you the possibility to have a full 8-disk RAID 6. Even if you don't need the storage (yet), an 8-disk RAID 6 should give you the horsepower for 10 Gbps (assuming the CPU is fast enough to not become a bottleneck).

An 8-disk RAID 6 and no caching is what the forum video editor expert Bob Zelin always suggest around here. I would search for his posts to get some ideas. If I remember correctly, he's not to keen on using TB to the NAS either...

- If I added 2 x SSDs, I'd effectively have the parts for a 3-tier QTIER setup (HDD/SSD/NVMe). Would that be more beneficial than NVMe caching?

In general SSD caching is very overrated for huge sequential usage and I would reserve the 3.5" bays for large mechanical disks, Both for the benefit of performance and storage capacity. User Trexx probably have the most experience with Qtier around here.

[Trexx]

QTier I don't believe distinguishes between SSD vs. NVMe, so you won't get get a 3 tier platform but a 2-tier one.

Also with QTier once you go there, if it doesn't meet your needs, you have to wipe and start over to come back from it. There is no "un-install". So I wouldn't recommend as a "starting point" for a new user or new use case. You also have less control over data placement with QTier. It is kind of a black box in a sense in terms goes in/comes out.

For performance, go 10GbE. Bob Zelin our resident video/photo guru has many posts about TB not getting the full performance level that 10GbE does.

I would use the NVMe for your workspace area (i.e. photo's you are doing touchup on after a shoot). Use the HDD's for your long-term final/storage for once you are doing editing them. Don't waste drives slots for SATA SSD... use them for HDD's in your use case since you will have NVMe.

Get a GOOD UPS and a good external back solution (2nd smaller NAS via 10GbE, cloud, etc.).

I would probably start with HDD as your system volume, use NVME for your workspace. That give you flexibility to experiment with NVME as caching or a separate volume w/o having to rebuild your system each time.

[bokr71]

Thanks for the feedback...

The reason I want to use Thunderbolt in the beginning, is because I can't afford upgrading my setup to 10GbE. My Mac Pro only has GigaBit Ethernet, and it is pretty costly to upgrade to 10GbE. Also my switch is an HP2915 GigaBit switch, and a new 10GbE enabled switch will set me back a few hundred dollars, and the cheaper ones are pretty noisy. I hear what you are saying, but will need to start off with Thunderbolt, and go to 10GbE later.

However, is it true that I can "just" buy a Thunderbolt/10GbE Ethernet dongle and connect my Mac Pro to the QNAP, and have the QNAP act as switch and connect via GigaBit Ethernet to my existing switch?

As for the QTIR, that was what I was getting out of forum searches also - thank you for the confirmation.

As for NVMe caching, you are right, perhaps I should just try it out. I will omit 2 SSDs in the NAS as per suggestions, and "just" outfit with HDDs and NVMe SSDs. I will probably start with 5 x HDDs, and add more later. 4 I believe it the minimum for Raid6?

Is it as straightforward to add HDDs to an array in QNAP as it is in my ReadyNAS? I just add a disk, and it is added to the volume...

[bokr71]

Also, I am now starting to wonder if HGST drives are the right way to go...

So now I am in between these 10TB drives;

Seagate IronWolf Pro,
Seagate Exos,
WD Red Pro,
HGST Ultrastar HE.

My priorities are 1) reliability, 2) noise, 3) speed, 4) price.

[Trexx]

I currently have my backup QNAP connected to my main one with the new Aquinta based 10GbE cards. QNAP just released a TB3 to 10GbE adapter (<$200) based on the same chip so might be an option for your Mac Pro.

Adding a drive is pretty straight forward (although will vary slightly based on storage config).

1) Add drive
2) Expand storage pool / Raidset
3) Expand volume to leverage new space.

In terms of drives, I have been a big fan for HGST drives over the years since even their base NAS rated drives were 7200 RPM. They are now owned by WD.

If you look at Backblaze's quarterly reliability reports HGST tends to either be #1 or in the top 2 for reliability. In terms of the new Seagate IronWolf's, QNAP has added extended health monitoring for them recently in 4.3.5.

It also gets into a little bit of a coke/pepsi scenario where others have had good luck/bad luck with certain brands.

I would look at speed (IOPS/RPM/Throughput), warranty, # of drives supported (some limit lower level drives # to in NAS, price, etc.

[bokr71]

I have seen the TB3/10GbE dongle. Unfortunately I can’t use it, as the Mac Pro “only” has TB2, and the dongle does not work with a TB2->TB3 cable...

Looking at disks is a science in itself. HGSTs may be faster, but also noisier. IronWolf Pros have recover warranty, but are not as fast as HGSTs. WD Golds have super high usage numbers, but are not as fast as IronWolf Pros. It is intimidating to investigate...

[Trexx]

I have seen the TB3/10GbE dongle. Unfortunately I can’t use it, as the Mac Pro “only” has TB2, and the dongle does not work with a TB2->TB3 cable...

Looking at disks is a science in itself. HGSTs may be faster, but also noisier. IronWolf Pros have recover warranty, but are not as fast as HGSTs. WD Golds have super high usage numbers, but are not as fast as IronWolf Pros. It is intimidating to investigate...

Oh definitely is an a research effort in and of itself re: drives. Also I would be careful about the recovery warranty, that may apply if the drive is traditionally formatted (ext4/etc.), but when you start adding raid striping/lvm/Qtier/etc. on top of it, I wouldn't count on that to get data back.

Which brings the last item you forget, trust none of the brands and ALWAYS have externals backs for all data you care about.

[P3R]

Also I would be careful about the recovery warranty, that may apply if the drive is traditionally formatted (ext4/etc.), but when you start adding raid striping/lvm/Qtier/etc. on top of it, I wouldn't count on that to get data back.

I agree. The Ironwolf recovery thing is marketing and when used in a RAID configuration I wouldn't value that at all. The reason that I prefer Ironwolf Pro over Red Pro is that the reliability specifications are way better and that Red Pro are usually more expensive.

The true Enterprise disks I would trust more than the two NAS Pro disks though. I'm not sure if the enterprise disks are really worth the extra money in a NAS application though. If you manage a RAID 6 well, individual disk reliability shouldn't really be a problem in a small array of 8 or less disks.

Which brings the last item you forget, trust none of the brands and ALWAYS have externals backs for all data you care about.

I couldn't agree more. RAID only help with system availability. Well maintained backups on separate systems and stored on other locations is what protect your data, never trust RAID for that.

[Bob Zelin]

Boy - I can't believe I did not see this post before.
AND I never heard of the TVS-872XT. It's not on the US QNAP site, but I do a Google search, and there it is. It looks like an 8 bay with a single 10G port and T3 ports.
There are SO MANY MODELS - I am getting a headache.

There are also a lot of responses already so I am not sure what questions have, and have not been answered. You state you have a Mac Pro. Is this a thunderbolt 2 cylinder Mac Pro, or the old cheese grater ? For the Thunderbolt 2 Cylinder Mac Pro, you get a Sonnet Twin 10G, and this is $499. This will give you 10G speeds from your Mac to the 10G port on the back of the QNAP (which I assume is an Aquantia AQC-107 chip like on the QNAP QXG-10G1T card). If you only use your native Ethernet port on your Mac Pro (you have 2 of them) - you will only get 100 MB/sec data transfer speeds. If you spend the 500 bucks for the Sonnet, you will get about 800 MB/sec - so it's really worth it. For multiple computers, if you are on a budget, you can get the QNAP switch - the
QSW-1208-8C, which is anywhere from $470 to $570 - depending on what day of the week it is, and what website you stumble on to purchase it. This is a full 10Gbase-T switch with 8 ports that are all backwards compatible to 1G, so you can mix and match 7 client workstations (both Win 10 and Mac) to the single 10G port on the QNAP TVS-872XT.

There are no more HGST NAS drives. HGST is owned by Western Digital, and Western Digital decided to drop the name. These drives are the same as WD RED Pro drives, which are 7200 RPM.
The Seagate Ironwolf drives are cheaper, and they seem to be ok. Don't cheap out on your drives - if you lose your data, you will not be happy ! Buy EIGHT DRIVES and create a single RAID group with them. Don't get 6 and add later. It takes forever to migrate more drives into the RAID group.

You don't own a thunderbolt 3 Mac (am I correct) - but Sonnet makes the Sonnet Solo 10G, which is $175, and QNAP is soon to release a Thunderbolt 3 to 10G adaptor that is even cheaper than that - so if you get a T3 Mac, it won't cost a lot to get 10G speeds. And the observation that you CANNOT use a T2 to T3 adaptor to get the Sonnet Solo 10G to work on your old Mac Pro T2 computer is absolutely correct. It does not work. The Solo 10G is buss powered, and a T2 port can't power it.

OK - ask away more questions. I do this all the time !

oh - there is NO noise from the QNAP switch.

Bob Zelin

[bokr71]

Thx for all responses - it’s nice to have a forum with instant feedback. I have thus far been using NetGear ReadyNASes and their forum has deteriorated these last years.

I have the 2013 “cylinder” Mac Pro, as well as a MacBook Pro. Both with Thunderbolt 2 connections, so to get 10GbE I would have to buy one of the crazy expensive dongles, and I could only use it one these two older Macs, as any new one has TB3 connections. However, I do have a Sonnet Echo Express external TB2 enclosure (currently with a Sonnet Tempo Pro and an Accelsior PCIe SSD in it), and I am right now checking if I can add a 10GbE PCIe card to that. If not, I will use a TB2->TB3 dongle and connect that way to the QNAP until I upgrade my Macs.

As for HDDs, I am now looking at either 8 x 10TB IronWolf Pro, or the 10TB Exos. I have found that the WD Gold/HGST HC510 are too noisy and too expensive... I’ll add 2 x 512GB Samsung 970 Pro NVMe SSDs for caching.

As for NAS not being a backup, you are preaching to the choir:) I have all my data (data, photos, music, videos, downloads, and DB libraries) backed up onto another NAS nightly, as well as external TB2 LaCie HDDs that I use for “critical” data (files, photos, and videos), and I cycle them between home and the bank on a monthly basis. So, I’ve got backup down:)

[bokr71]

Qts.:

I have found that I can buy a relatively cheap Sonnet Solo10G PCIe card and put it in my Sonnet Exho Express III TB2 expansion box, and vupti, I have 10GbE on my Mac Pro. To save and not buy a 10GbE switch right now, could I configure the QNAP as a virtual switch, connect to it using this 10GbE connection from my Mac Pro, and then a normal gigabit connection between the NAS and my existing switch, and have my Mac Pro on the network?

[Bob Zelin]

NO NO NO.
You cannot put the under $100 Sonnet Solo 10G PCIe card in your Echo Express III TB2. The only way this card works is with macOS 10.13.3 or higher. There are no drivers to download for this card from Sonnet. You must have the driver that is build into the native macOS - which is only 10.13.3 - 10.14.1. There is no trick. If you are running 10.13.2 or earlier, then you can get the Sonnet
Presto 10Gbase-T card - this is about $260.

Forget the virtual switch. If you have multiple computers - BUY A SWITCH. Keep your life simple. To make all of this work, you need TWO networks. One for your house internet (I assume you own a switch already for your computers) and then a SECOND switch for your 10G network (which is 1G compatible as well). TWO ports per computer (even if one "port" is WiFi for internet access).
Assign static IP addresses for the 10G network - on the QNAP and on your computers. You are a Pro Photographer. All this "extra equipment" - like a small 8 port QNAP switch and the $260 Sonnet card for your existing Echo Express - won't you make this back in one day of shooting ? So your investment has paid for itself on your next job - and it's a tax write off for your business. Do the right thing.

Bob Zelin

[bokr71]

LOL - currently I am not a professional photographer, I'm a semi-professional photographer, and make not much money of my photography...

Sonnet says I am use the Solo10G or the Presto 10GbE 10GBASE-T card in the Echo Express, connected to my Mac Pro (running macOS 10.14.2), and there is a driver for macOS; http://www.sonnettech.com/product/presto10gbaset.html

According to Sonnet, it should work exactly as I need it to; https://www.broadcastingcable.com/post- ... -under-100

My network right now is centered around an HP2915 switch, and the DHCP comes from a LinkSys Velop system (which also provides WiFi throughout the house).

If I go the way of 10GbE, I could buy the Sonnet card, and a 10GbE switch (I guess), and have the Mac Pro and the QNAP NAS connected to it via 10GbE, and then the 10GbE switch connected to the HP2915. In that setup (as right now), I'd have DHCP reservations for the NAS, but not the computers.

Why is this way better than the Thunderbolt connection, which I can setup without buying anything at all? If I use a Thunderbolt connection between the Mac Pro and the QNAP NAS, as well as Ethernet between my Mac Pro and my HP2915 and between the QNAP NAS and the HP2915, would I not have a functioning setup as well?

[Bob Zelin]

The Sonnet Presto 10G card is a totally different card than the Solo 10-G PCIe card.
There is NO DRIVER DOWNLOAD for the Solo 10G PCIe for a Mac. It is built into MacOS 10.13.3 and higher. If you have 10.13.2 or lower, you cannot use this card.
If you want a 10G card from Sonnet, you get the Presto 10G card, which is about $260, and YES, there is a driver for this card for any Mac OS, and this will work.

I did not realize you were a home user, and doing this for fun. The Thunderbolt port will work fine for you. If you are using Adobe Lightroom, you will have problems putting catalogs
on your QNAP (or any other network attached storage device).

The HP 2915 is not a 10GbE switch - it's only 1G -
http://www.curvesales.com/HP-2915-Switch-Series.asp

Bob Zelin