TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

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miskbrebran
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TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by miskbrebran » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:30 am

Greetings! Been searching thru the forums and have found pieces to the puzzle, but cant find an exact solution to my quandry with our TS-412.
Current configuration:

TS-412 (4.3.3.0967) RAID 1 * 2 (using two 3TB WD Red HDDs)
Bay 1 = HDD 1 has a disk read/write error (red blinker), Bay 2 = HDD 2 is functioning normally (flashing green)
Bay 3 = Empty, Bay 4 = empty

Looking to change to the followng configuration:

TS-412 (4.3.3.0967) RAID 10 * 4 (using four 4TB WD Red HDDs)

The disk read/write error has pushed the RAID 1 into degraded mode (as expected), but I am not able to select the Bay 1 HDD for removal in the Volume Management page. I can only “Scan” HDD 1 under current configuration: physical disks or “Format, Check File System, Remove” HDD 2 in current configuration: logical volumes, none of which seem to offer solutions to what I want to accomplish.

There is a copy usb port below the power button on the 412. If I am understanding the system and how RAID 10 functions, I could essentially replace all 4 drives prior to power on, let them format, mount & set array to RAID 10, then use an external usb device (with previous HDD 2) to copy the files to the new RAID 10 set up.

Is this a viable solution for removing the bad drive, replacing the 3TB HDDs with four 4TB HDDs while changing a RAID 1 to a RAID 10?

Thx in advanced for any assistance!
TS-419 QTS 4.3.3.0967 B20190629
Port Trunking BRR
RAID 10 * 4 (4TB Red WD WD40EFRX HDDs)

dolbyman
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Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by dolbyman » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:54 am

either fix your raid1 first (replace the disk and rebuild ..all hot and no gui interaction needed)

or remove the drives and start from scratch .. on these old units, primary volume femoval, means full reinstall

while I normally would vote against raid10 (in favour for raid6 if dual parity is needed) these old units profit from the lower cpu impact of no parity calculations (my old 419p+ is also running raid10)

miskbrebran
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Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by miskbrebran » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:02 am

Thx for the response! So if starting from scratch, I can do it as I described above, correct?
TS-419 QTS 4.3.3.0967 B20190629
Port Trunking BRR
RAID 10 * 4 (4TB Red WD WD40EFRX HDDs)

dolbyman
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Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by dolbyman » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:12 pm

internal hdds cannot be attached externally

you would need to have a backup first (have backups at all times)

miskbrebran
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Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by miskbrebran » Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:42 pm

When you say internal, what exactly do you mean? I am assuming the HDD2 would be used as the back up since it was previously in a RAID1.What I want to do is take that good HDD2, place that drive in an external usb drive housing to copy back to the RAID10 via the usb “Copy” port after I get the new HDDs installed. Since HDD2 was already in the Qnap RAID1 config, its already been formatted by QTS so the server should be able to read the data, where as a regular pc would not, correct? Does that make sense and sound viable?
TS-419 QTS 4.3.3.0967 B20190629
Port Trunking BRR
RAID 10 * 4 (4TB Red WD WD40EFRX HDDs)

P3R
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Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by P3R » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:28 pm

dolbyman wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:12 pm
internal hdds cannot be attached externally
Are you sure that applies also to non-storage pool cat1 models?

I have done exactly that and it worked once I found the correct partition but I don't remember what cat1 model it was (not even if it was Intel or ARM) and what QTS it was running (though it was much earlier than 4.3.3).
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

dolbyman
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Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by dolbyman » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:40 pm

afaik external usb mounts(cat1) can only handle one partition per device ..and that is a system one (usually) ..unless qnap changed something

the backup at all times still stands though

miskbrebran
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Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by miskbrebran » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:05 pm

I really appreciate the info and time from all responses. I have hands-on experience with networking, home media, SOHO use/config, but im just an end user with no formal training, so please excuse my ignorance that will surely show through.

Previously, I used the 412 (def earlier than 4.3.3.x) as a RAID0 for pure storage, then upgraded my drives from 1TB * 2 to the RAID1 3TB * 2 config Im in now to mirror the data. To accomplish that, I transferred the data thru the server on a QTS formatted 3TB HDD connected to the external port, then did a complete rebuild with the 3TB * 2 to get the RAID1. I used the extenal HDD on the copy port & was able to see the data thru the 412 (but not when i plugged it into windows b/c the drive was QTS formatted), hit the copy button to reload the data to the server after I had the other two 3TB drives installed, formatted and set as a RAID1.

I have always been under the impression mirror copies were “backups” of disks that fail, hence have not been actively backing up the data. Whats the difference b/t back up data and mirrored data?

If I fix the RAID1 by pulling the bad HDD installing a new HDD, am I correct to assume the server will format, then remirror the good drive? After that I will have one 4TB HDD and one good 3TB HDD. Do I then replace the 3TB HDD, then let it format/remirror the new drive 4TB drive?

As we move forward, some of my initial goals may change based on the new info I receive. Thx again for all your help!!
Last edited by miskbrebran on Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
TS-419 QTS 4.3.3.0967 B20190629
Port Trunking BRR
RAID 10 * 4 (4TB Red WD WD40EFRX HDDs)

P3R
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Posts: 10981
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by P3R » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:09 pm

dolbyman wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:40 pm
afaik external usb mounts(cat1) can only handle one partition per device ..and that is a system one (usually) ..unless qnap changed something
If I don't remember wrong the different partitions showed up as a different disks; USBDisk1, USBDisk2, USBDisk3 and so on. The user data was in the third or fourth partition.

The behaviour may have changed in later versions though.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

miskbrebran
Starting out
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:00 am

Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by miskbrebran » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:21 am

So what do yall think? Should I fix the RAID1 by pulling the bad HDD installing a new HDD. am I correct to assume the server will format, then remirror the good drive? After that I will have one 4TB HDD and one good 3TB HDD. Do I then replace the 3TB HDD, then let it format/remirror the new drive 4TB drive?

Havent turned it on but once to make sure I had the correct QTS version...

And again, can someone explain the difference b/t a mirrored and backup drive? Thx!! ;)
TS-419 QTS 4.3.3.0967 B20190629
Port Trunking BRR
RAID 10 * 4 (4TB Red WD WD40EFRX HDDs)

dolbyman
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Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by dolbyman » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:46 am

backup drive is a backup(external drive)
backup is done mnaually or with a program like backup station or hbs

a raid1 mirror involves a linux software builtin to the nas

see here
https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Linux_Raid

P3R
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Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by P3R » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:47 pm

miskbrebran wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:21 am
Should I fix the RAID1 by pulling the bad HDD installing a new HDD.
That's the reason for running a RAID.
am I correct to assume the server will format, then remirror the good drive?
Yes.
After that I will have one 4TB HDD and one good 3TB HDD.
If everything is as you think and everything goes well, yes. Only 3 TB of the 4 TB disk will be used.
Do I then replace the 3TB HDD, then let it format/remirror the new drive 4TB drive?
First of all you should concentrate on getting a proper external backup of all important data that doesn't exist elsewhere.

After that you should follow the instructions in the documentation under the heading Expanding RAID Group Capacity. There it says that you should replace the disks one by one and hopefully it will recognize that you've already replaced one of the disks.
And again, can someone explain the difference b/t a mirrored and backup drive? Thx!! ;)
An external backup will protect your data from, among other things; concurrent multiple disk failures in the NAS, user mistakes and ransomware attacks. It will also protect the data from fire, flooding and theft of the NAS if the backup is stored at another location than the main site. A backup should be possible to restore to another NAS/Server/computer without the original NAS being available at all. In it's simplest form the backup is an external disk connected to the NAS via USB during the backup procedure.

A RAID 1 will only protect the data from single disk failures in the NAS. In comparison with the backup you see that RAID 1 protect from very few threats but the main objective with RAID 1 (and higher RAID levels) isn't to protect the data, it's to keep the system up and running and to keep the data available for the users despite a single disk failure.

RAID is mainly a data availability feature. Backups are a data protection feature.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

miskbrebran
Starting out
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:00 am

Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by miskbrebran » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:03 pm

Dolby, I read thru several of the topics so thx for the informative link, helps to reduce my ignorance a bit ;)

P3R, thx for clarifying the steps in the process. Ill get started this evening and post back how it all goes.
TS-419 QTS 4.3.3.0967 B20190629
Port Trunking BRR
RAID 10 * 4 (4TB Red WD WD40EFRX HDDs)

miskbrebran
Starting out
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:00 am

Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by miskbrebran » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:13 am

Forgot to ask. Is it better to hot swap or cold swap the drives? Thx again!!
TS-419 QTS 4.3.3.0967 B20190629
Port Trunking BRR
RAID 10 * 4 (4TB Red WD WD40EFRX HDDs)

P3R
Guru
Posts: 10981
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:39 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden (UTC+01:00)

Re: TS-412 HDD/RAID upgrade

Post by P3R » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:20 am

Always hot swap if possible.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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