877-1600 or something else?

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aarbee
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877-1600 or something else?

Post by aarbee »

I am on the brink of buying the 877-1600, as there is still the 20% discount on it.
Usage is Soho.
1 person mostly for file serving
2-5 VM's, but only 2 are constant in use. From which in one is reasonable in use.
Backup server for a remote nas
Emby server 2-3 streams. Some are transcoding (iPad).

And I came to the conclusion that the 877-1600 was big/strong enough for my use.

The question is more:"Or are the 882 or 872 or the rackmounted 883 a better solution?"
There is no need for Rackmounted.

Thanks ahead for thinking with me.
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Main NAS:
Model: TS-253D - 20200725
Boot:- Raid 1: 2x 1 TB m.2 WD Red
Disks - 6TB WD Red, 350GB WD blue 2.5"

BACKUP NAS (On 2 hours a day due to Electricity costs)
Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Boot:-Raid 1: 2x Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
Disks Raid 1:-3.5" 2x Toshiba 10 TB
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
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spikemixture
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by spikemixture »

aarbee wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:46 pm I am on the brink of buying the 877-1600, as there is still the 20% discount on it.
Usage is Soho.
1 person mostly for file serving
2-5 VM's, but only 2 are constant in use. From which in one is reasonable in use.
Backup server for a remote nas
Emby server 2-3 streams. Some are transcoding (iPad).

And I came to the conclusion that the 877-1600 was big/strong enough for my use.

The question is more:"Or are the 882 or 872 or the rackmounted 883 a better solution?"
There is no need for Rackmounted.

Thanks ahead for thinking with me.
I have the TVS-1282 I7 (32g) then bought the TS-1277 1700 (16G + 2x16 added)
I don't personally know the 882 or whatever is the 872, but from your needs and description you will be happy with the 877 with 32gb RAM if it doesn't have it...
Qnap TS-1277 1700 (48gb RAM) 8x10TB WD White,- Raid5, 2x M.2 Crucial 1TB (Raid 1 VM),
2x SSD 860 EVO 500gb (Raid1 QTS), 2x SSD 860 EVO 250GB (Cache), 2x M.2 PCIe 970 500gb NVME (Raid1 Plex and Emby server)
GTX 1050 TI
Qnap TVS-1282 i7 (32GB RAM) 6x8TB WD White - JBOD, 2x M.2 Crucial 500gb (Raid1 VM),
2x SSD EVO 500gb (Raid1 QTS), 2x SSD EVO 250gb (Raid1 Cache), 2x M.2 PCIe Intel 512GB NVME (Raid1-Servers)
Synology -1817+ - DOA
Drobo 5n - 5x4TB Seagate, - Drobo Raid = 15TB
ProBox 8 Bay USB3 - 49TB mixed drives - JBOD
All software is updated asap.
I give my opinion from my experience i.e. I have (or had) that piece of equipment/software and used it! :roll:
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aarbee
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by aarbee »

882 is the 8+2 bay version of your 1282.
like the 877 is the 6+2 version of your 1277.
And the 872 is the new series with the 8400T cpu in it.

Thanks for your insight.
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Main NAS:
Model: TS-253D - 20200725
Boot:- Raid 1: 2x 1 TB m.2 WD Red
Disks - 6TB WD Red, 350GB WD blue 2.5"

BACKUP NAS (On 2 hours a day due to Electricity costs)
Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Boot:-Raid 1: 2x Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
Disks Raid 1:-3.5" 2x Toshiba 10 TB
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---

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Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
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aarbee
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by aarbee »

Do you think that the 300 euro extra for the 1700 + 16GB mem is worth it?
I am anyway stuffing the memory up to at least 32 GB. Or maybe 2 sticks of 32 GB. Anycase is any memory in the Qnap to much.
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Main NAS:
Model: TS-253D - 20200725
Boot:- Raid 1: 2x 1 TB m.2 WD Red
Disks - 6TB WD Red, 350GB WD blue 2.5"

BACKUP NAS (On 2 hours a day due to Electricity costs)
Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Boot:-Raid 1: 2x Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
Disks Raid 1:-3.5" 2x Toshiba 10 TB
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

aarbee wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:46 pm I am on the brink of buying the 877-1600, as there is still the 20% discount on it.
Usage is Soho.
1 person mostly for file serving
2-5 VM's, but only 2 are constant in use. From which in one is reasonable in use.
Backup server for a remote nas
Emby server 2-3 streams. Some are transcoding (iPad).

And I came to the conclusion that the 877-1600 was big/strong enough for my use.

The question is more:"Or are the 882 or 872 or the rackmounted 883 a better solution?"
There is no need for Rackmounted.

Thanks ahead for thinking with me.
if vm is your requirement, 4-5 then the amd ryzen nas models is highly recommended, because they have good passmark score and also many threads to allocate between the vms and your nas.

also you get a 20% discount



look at it another way
Intel i5-8400T
6 Cores, 6 Threads @2.8GHz, Coffee Lake.
Release date: Q4 2017.
Ryzen 5 1600
6 Cores, 12 Threads @3.2GHz, Zen.
Release date: Q2 2017.

more threads is better for VM. this is why Intel is losing popularity to Ryzen these days :roll:


Not sure if you noticed, but there have been some new amd ryzen rackmounts being introduced, that i wonder if a desktop model is around the corner. but no idea :'

but if you can't wait, you may as well get the x77 at the 20% discount.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
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Trexx
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by Trexx »

Hey Arbee,

877 is a great box. If you are going to be running 2-3 streams AND need HW transcoding as part of it, then it gets a little more interesting discussion.

For QPKG Emby transcoding, retail NVidia Cards (GTX-10x0/20x0) are limited to 2 HW transcode streams by Nvidia. If you can find a used Quadro P-series card on say ebay/etc. there is no limit (beyond card's capability/memory). Many apps such as Plex don't have a 2 stream limit if using the embedded GPU on the CPU itself. So from a pure transcoding view, something in the new x72 family of boxes works pretty good for that use case or an x77 series box with either Nvidia Quadro or GTX card (depending on # of simultaneous HW transcodes).

As for VM usages, a 1600 vs 1700 CPu is about a 15% passmark difference overall. 1600 has fewer cores, but higher clock than 1700. So it is a little give/take there. Personally I didn't see the value in 1700.

I would look at either something like the 877-1600 series, and use the $$ saved to buy 3rd party RAM upgrade and Nvidia card (GTX or Quadro) OR go with something like the TVS-872XT-i5-16G.

877 will be faster for CPU work (which some transcoding even uses for things like subtitles/etc.), but x72 gives you 10GbE standard & NVMe m.2's (which have to be added to x77).
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/AM ... 2984vs3260

Pro's and Con's to both boxes... but either one is a good system to build off of.
Paul

Model: TS-877-1600 FW: 4.5.3.x
QTS (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x 1TB WD Blue m.2's
Data (HDD): [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar
VMs (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x1TB SK Hynix Gold
Ext. (HDD): TR-004 [Raid-5] 4 x 4TB HGST Ultastor
RAM: Kingston HyperX Fury 64GB DDR4-2666
UPS: CP AVR1350

Model:TVS-673 32GB & TS-228a Offline[/color]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Plex NAS Compatibility Guide | QNAP Plex FAQ | Moogle's QNAP Faq
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Moogle Stiltzkin
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin »

Trexx wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:03 am 877 will be faster for CPU work (which some transcoding even uses for things like subtitles/etc.), but x72 gives you 10GbE standard & NVMe m.2's (which have to be added to x77).


Pro's and Con's to both boxes... but either one is a good system to build off of.
it boils down to this.

x77 does not get full marks because it omits those 2 things. everything else is does pretty good.

but then again, it does support addons for adding NVME M.2 slots and 10gbe. although it is an additional purchase
https://www.qnap.com/en/product/qm2-m.2ssd-10gbe


the older addon card occupied the gpu slot. but i heard that a newer addon model can now occupy the secondary slot, so you can then use both gpu and this addon at the same time. so make sure you get the correct addon :'

ask spike if you are unsure, since he explained it to me.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 (QTS) w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A (Truenas Core) w. 4x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) RaidZ1 ZFS + 8gb ddr3 Crucial
[^] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) 2x 4TB Seagate Ironwolf, Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-253D (Truenas Scale)
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Qotom Pfsense|100mbps FTTH | Win11, Ryzen 5600X Desktop (1x2tb Crucial P50 Plus M.2 SSD, 1x 8tb seagate Ironwolf,1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Resources
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin
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aarbee
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by aarbee »

The question is this:
Spend 1600 euro for the 877-600 or 1950 euro for the 872XT.
Where the Passmark is 12.000 vs just not 10.000
OK you get 10gbe on board for the 872 and nvme.

Yet I allready have the 10gbe networkcard: QXG-10G1T
If I look at: https://www.qnap.com/en/product/compare ... t_overview
They both fit in slot 2.

NVME adds only extra speed to the SSD's. And as I only would use them for Virtual Machines, well that could be a nice upgrade.

Regarding hardware transcoding, I thought that the quality is lower then the CPU transcoding.
What I see from Transcoding now, is that the 673 is at 85% for a few minutes and then drops to normal CPU usage. Not sure why I would want transcoding via the videochip.

I could exchange the 8400T by a 8700T of the guarantee is over. But if that cpu is still available? I do not know, as it is allready a burden to buy that chip.
The 872 only supports 32GB, but I guess that 64 gb will be supported to, as that is being supported by the CPU.
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Main NAS:
Model: TS-253D - 20200725
Boot:- Raid 1: 2x 1 TB m.2 WD Red
Disks - 6TB WD Red, 350GB WD blue 2.5"

BACKUP NAS (On 2 hours a day due to Electricity costs)
Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Boot:-Raid 1: 2x Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
Disks Raid 1:-3.5" 2x Toshiba 10 TB
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Trexx
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by Trexx »

Cpu transcoding will have better video quality, BUT will depend on starting resolution, upload bandwidth (if doing remote WAN access) etc. Since you already have 10GB card, really amounts to 877+GPU vs 872. 877 better cpu and officially supports 64GB. 872 has NVMe built in (can be added on 877).

I personally always tend to root for AMD on cpu as I think they are trying harder these days. My VM usage isn’t that heavy on disk I/o where NVMe makes a big difference.

Either one is a good box.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Paul

Model: TS-877-1600 FW: 4.5.3.x
QTS (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x 1TB WD Blue m.2's
Data (HDD): [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar
VMs (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x1TB SK Hynix Gold
Ext. (HDD): TR-004 [Raid-5] 4 x 4TB HGST Ultastor
RAM: Kingston HyperX Fury 64GB DDR4-2666
UPS: CP AVR1350

Model:TVS-673 32GB & TS-228a Offline[/color]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Plex NAS Compatibility Guide | QNAP Plex FAQ | Moogle's QNAP Faq
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aarbee
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by aarbee »

I have a 300/40mbit cable supscription, so that will do, for 2 external connections.
Suppose I have 10 vm's, then would 1 run daily for doing some business stuff on it. 1 is running but only doing 1 backupjob during the night. The rest is offline and fired up, when needed. So yeah, impact? Probably zero as well.
In that case, I think that m.2 or normal SSD is fast enough.
I am not really convinced about the x72 series. I only wished I could use the Ryzen 2000 series in that box, but Qnap decided different.
Considering the Ryzen rackmounted price, that is a nogo as well. And yes, I can build a 1700 into that box as well, later.

Thanks for thinking with me
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Main NAS:
Model: TS-253D - 20200725
Boot:- Raid 1: 2x 1 TB m.2 WD Red
Disks - 6TB WD Red, 350GB WD blue 2.5"

BACKUP NAS (On 2 hours a day due to Electricity costs)
Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Boot:-Raid 1: 2x Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
Disks Raid 1:-3.5" 2x Toshiba 10 TB
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by P3R »

aarbee wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:44 am ...I think that m.2 or normal SSD is fast enough.
I agree, I don't feel that M.2 SATA SSD performance is a bottleneck for my VMs.
And yes, I can build a 1700 into that box as well, later.
But why would you spend money to get lower single-threaded performance and more cores when you probably (based on your expected usage) won't be needing more than the 12 threads in the 1600?
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
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aarbee
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by aarbee »

A thread is not a core, and in that way, I do not see a threat as half a core.
It only means, the work, being done in the core, can be split into 2 items. I sometimes wonder if 1 core with 2 threats is really much faster then just the 1 core.

But is in't it so, that if I give those 2 running VM's each 3 cores, that it takes really 3 cores? Which means, 6 out of 6 cores are being used allready. Or is it, 6 out of 12? That a core is in fact a thread? OR does it simply share the real cores?

@P3R, what is using that simgle core power then? Emby/Plex? If that is the case, then is the 1600 the better one. And not by much. But I had the impression that Plex and Emby where multi core.

I really appreciate your insights.
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Main NAS:
Model: TS-253D - 20200725
Boot:- Raid 1: 2x 1 TB m.2 WD Red
Disks - 6TB WD Red, 350GB WD blue 2.5"

BACKUP NAS (On 2 hours a day due to Electricity costs)
Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Boot:-Raid 1: 2x Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
Disks Raid 1:-3.5" 2x Toshiba 10 TB
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P3R
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by P3R »

aarbee wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:16 am I sometimes wonder if 1 core with 2 threats is really much faster then just the 1 core.
I don't think it's faster. I agree that it only means that the cores can be split to be more effectively used in a multi-threaded environment.
But is in't it so, that if I give those 2 running VM's each 3 cores, that it takes really 3 cores?
I'd say no to that.

To verify my thinking I fired up a 4-core VM and maxing out a single "core" within the VM I ended up with a system CPU usage of 8-9 %. I had two backups running at the same time so the number is partly an estimate but somewhere around those numbers. With full speed at all 4 VM "cores" I get 33-35 % CPU usage so I'd continue to claim that a VM "core" is actually only a physical CPU thread. That tell me that with two 4-core VMs running maxed out, you'd still have 4 threads available for the system.
@P3R, what is using that simgle core power then?
It's your usage so it's up to you to decide if 12 threads are enough or if you will really constantly max out 14 or more threads. According to my rough calculations after a few beers, it's about there that the Ryzen 7 1700 could begin to compensate for being slower per thread. The next question (that only you can answer) is if that advantage is really worth the money to you?
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!
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Trexx
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by Trexx »

aarbee wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:16 am A thread is not a core, and in that way, I do not see a threat as half a core.
It only means, the work, being done in the core, can be split into 2 items. I sometimes wonder if 1 core with 2 threats is really much faster then just the 1 core.
A thread is NOT equal to a core, but it kinda is. The whole point of multi-threading is that there are many times when the CPU core is sitting idle waiting for something (a memory fetch, I/O from disk/network/etc.) so instead of the core just taking a coffee break, with multi-threading the core can work on another task during the gap. The OS/Kernel scheduler is kind of like the foreman responsible for assign the work out to a specific core/thread.
aarbee wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:16 am But is in't it so, that if I give those 2 running VM's each 3 cores, that it takes really 3 cores? Which means, 6 out of 6 cores are being used allready. Or is it, 6 out of 12? That a core is in fact a thread? OR does it simply share the real cores?

@P3R, what is using that simgle core power then? Emby/Plex? If that is the case, then is the 1600 the better one. And not by much. But I had the impression that Plex and Emby where multi core.
So on a 1600, you have 6 physical cores that support 2 thread each. Basically you get something kinda of like this (some OS/BIOS start counting at 0, others at 1):

Core 0 - Thread #0 & #1
Core 1 - Thread #2 & #3
.
.
Core 5 - Thread #10 & #11

In general (will vary some depending on hypervisor/etc.), your VM's aren't assigned to any specific core/thread. Their work is being handled by whichever one is available, but generally the kernel will try and optimize the schedule to the VM vCPU's to cores/threads depending on availability, memory, caches, etc. to optimize performance.

In terms of Plex/Emby, I believe they are multi-threaded applications (i.e. they can consume more than 1-core simultaneously), but that doesn't mean ALL processes/functions are multi-threaded. Depending on how much SIMULTANEOUS work you have going on, having more cores/threads helps in multi-threaded apps but only if you are using them all.

So if you say a 8 cylinder engine in a Truck, but for highway driving it uses ECO mode which is only using 4 cylinders, then the other 4 cylinders aren't really a benefit at that point. Better performance on the 4 would be. But now we are at the job site and towing concrete pillars which needs the full 8-cylinders. While each cylinder maybe less efficient, having all 8 vs. 6 is a benefit (more pillars).

Same basic thing on the 1600 vs 1700. 1600 has better performing cylinders, but lower total overall than the 1700. IF you fully maxed out the 6 core/12 threads on the 1600 regularly, the 1700 is probably a benefit as you get a couple more cylinders.

BUT if you are only using say 4 cores/threads worth of the 1700, then the 1600 is a better option as the cores in the 1600 run faster/better. So for single threaded/multi-threaded apps the 1600 is better as long as you don't over-allocated beyond the 6 core/12-thread limit of it.
Paul

Model: TS-877-1600 FW: 4.5.3.x
QTS (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x 1TB WD Blue m.2's
Data (HDD): [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar
VMs (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x1TB SK Hynix Gold
Ext. (HDD): TR-004 [Raid-5] 4 x 4TB HGST Ultastor
RAM: Kingston HyperX Fury 64GB DDR4-2666
UPS: CP AVR1350

Model:TVS-673 32GB & TS-228a Offline[/color]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Plex NAS Compatibility Guide | QNAP Plex FAQ | Moogle's QNAP Faq
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aarbee
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Re: 877-1600 or something else?

Post by aarbee »

@P3R; Thank you for explaining.
@Trexx; Thanks for explaining. You said it better then I did, about the cores/threats. But I had the same idea.

It is a pitty that you can not put the Ryzen 2000 or 3000 in the desktop box. But I think the 877-1600 is good enough. Thank you explaining. I'll will pull the trigger on the money this or next week.
Thanks for thinking with me, you all.
Friendly Greetings,

RobB

Main NAS:
Model: TS-253D - 20200725
Boot:- Raid 1: 2x 1 TB m.2 WD Red
Disks - 6TB WD Red, 350GB WD blue 2.5"

BACKUP NAS (On 2 hours a day due to Electricity costs)
Model: TvS-673 40GB (2*32+2*4) - 20170215
Boot:-Raid 1: 2x Crucial M.2 275GB 2x
Disks Raid 1:-3.5" 2x Toshiba 10 TB
UPS: Back-UPS Pro BR900G-GR
---

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Boxe: Nvidia ShieldTV Pro
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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