Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

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Strontium00
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Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Strontium00 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:38 pm

Hi,

Early days of learning how to use the NAS and nothing irreplaceable stored on the NAS yet, but I've come unstuck. My NAS is a TS-453A, firmware 4.4.3.1354, with 2x WD Red 4TB drives.

I initially ran the NAS for a couple of days on a single drive, single storage pool, thick volume. I added all the apps I need and added users, no probs. Great NAS!

I then added the second WD Red 4TB HDD to bay 2. This is where I think I've gone wrong...

The disk in bay 2 initially showed up as a static volume. I wanted it to be part of the single Storage Pool, as that seemed tidy. I formatted the drive in bay 2 and then expanded the Storage Pool to include this disk. The result I have now is that both HDDs (bay 1 and 2) are showing as being in the same pool, so far so good. However, the 2 disks are showing as 2 separate RAID Groups. Is this a bad setup? I understand that if a single HDD fails, I will lose the entire Storage Pool? I'd like to remove the disk from bay 2 from the pool, but I've read that this is not possible without destroying the entire pool. The entire pool is around 30% full, so the disk in bay 2 probably has little or no data written to it? I'd like to avoid starting from scratch, if possible. Is there a way to combine the 2 RAID groups, so I can benefit from RAID 1? I do have a USB 3.0 drive, which I could plug in to the NAS, if that helps with recovery options.

I'm still doing lots of googling and trying to learn the concepts, but any input is very welcome.

Kind regards,

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Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:59 pm

you need 2 hdds in order to create a raid1. so this is already 1 raid volume in a pool.
I then added the second WD Red 4TB HDD to bay 2. This is where I think I've gone wrong...
so what was your single hdd setup as originally? I doubt it was raid 1, since you need 2 hdds for that to work.

I suggest perhaps you backup elsewhere first (separate from your nas device), then do a reinitialization.
https://www.reddit.com/r/qnap/comments/ ... _a_backup/

Then after initial initialization, go to storage manager, create raid1 (2hdds) 1 pool/1volume (thick). And you are done.

with thick volumes by default it allocates only 50% of your usable space. So you can adjust it to increase the usable space from 50, higher, up to max 100% (although you don't have to do 100% straight away, just allocate as much as you currently require and allocate more over time until you max out eventually).

You also want to enable scheduled raid scrubbing. once a month is the usual recommendation.


Raid 1 has a 50% usable storage space penalty. If you want better, try raid5 using 4 hdds.
http://www.raid-calculator.com/default.aspx

https://www.qnap.com/en/how-to/knowledg ... ick-volume

viewtopic.php?t=129062


for future reference, if later you decide to get 2 more hdds with the same capacities, you can do 4x hdds raid5 1pool/1vol (thick).
here is info for migrating from raid 1 to raid5
viewtopic.php?t=145203

tldr: product page download manual and scroll down to "Migrating RAID Configuration"

By the way those WD Red 4TB HDDs, are they EFAX or EFRX? are you are aware of the current situation where WD scammed people with EFAX to buy SMR hdds without realizing it :'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSionmmunMs


If you are using WD red 4tb non pro EFAX, you may want to consider RMA for replacements for non SMR drives :(

how to rma wd drives
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YvJ9ZHi9Ug


Mine are EFRX so i didn't have to.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

Strontium00
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Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:41 am

Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Strontium00 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:17 pm

Thanks for the reply and generic advice on RAID.
so what was your single hdd setup as originally? I doubt it was raid 1, since you need 2 hdds for that to work.
The original setup was a single 4TB HDD in bay 1, which I set up as a single thick volume by accepting the defaults in the setup wizard, after insertion. I can't remember specifically, but I think it was labeled "RAID Group 1", only one disk so definitely not RAID 1.

I understand that in my current configuration, if either disk fails, it will take the whole storage pool down with it?

The main issue is that the second HDD I added is showing up as "Raid Group 2", which gives me no options to implement RAID 1. Is there a way to resolve this without starting from scratch?

Strontium00
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Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Strontium00 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:58 pm

Reference the SMR HDD question, I've checked and both drives are:
Model Number: WDC WD40EFAX-68JH4N0

This is bad right? I only purchased them direct from the WD website a couple of weeks ago!

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Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:26 am

Strontium00 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:58 pm
Reference the SMR HDD question, I've checked and both drives are:
Model Number: WDC WD40EFAX-68JH4N0

This is bad right? I only purchased them direct from the WD website a couple of weeks ago!
'
i'm sorry to report, but yes you are affected :(

you basically paid for SMR drives unknowingly. not your fault (they didn't even have SMR in the product description at the time on purpose), WD conned u and others into purchasing SMR drives for NAS usage. They are being sued right now in a class action lawsuit as consequence 8)

Watch the video i posted how to go about RMA for those WD drives. You may need to pay for the shipping of the drives back to WD. They ship back to you for free, no other costs on your end. If i were you, i would suggest to first lodge a complaint to WD

1. determine that your RMA is approved
2. determine what hdd you are getting as replacements. Either WD red Pro 4tb, OR the old stock WD red non pro EFRX 4tb. You decide which you rather have, then ask WD for that as replacement.
3. see if they can ship you the drives up front before you send your drives to them, so you at least have a usable nas with as little downtime. Normal rma process, they expect you to ship the drives first, before you get replacements. But in the case of SMR, you can probably insist it is due to their own neglicience, hence why they should ship the drives to you first ( i believe this is part of the advance rma procedure). Up to you if you want to insist on this or not. I notice some users got this option done for them.


here is another video explaining about the WD SMR issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JP7A_A0tY4

Western Digital gets sued for sneaking SMR disks into its NAS channel
WD clearly underestimated the consumer outrage they'd face over SMR disks.
Hattis Law isn't pulling any punches in the allegations made in its class-action lawsuit, specifically calling WD out not only for using SMR technology in less-than-ideal devices, but flatly accusing them of outright deception in the process.

All three of the surviving conventional hard drive vendors—Toshiba, Western Digital, and Seagate—have gotten caught sneaking disks featuring Shingled Magnetic Recording technology into unexpected places recently. But Western Digital has been the most brazen of the three, and it's been singled out for a class action lawsuit in response.

Although all three major manufacturers quietly added SMR disks to their desktop hard drive line-up, Western Digital is the only one so far to slip them into its NAS (Network Attached Storage) stack. NAS drives are expected to perform well in RAID and other multiple disk arrays, whether ZFS pools or consumer devices like Synology or Netgear NAS appliances.

In sharp contrast to Western Digital's position on SMR disks as NAS, Seagate executive Greg Belloni told us that there weren't any SMR disks in the Ironwolf (competitor to Western Digital Red) line-up now and that the technology is not appropriate for that purpose.

"Seagate only produces NAS drives that are CMR," Belloni says. "We do not have any SMR drives in our Ironwolf and Ironwolf Pro drives, which are NAS solutions [...] we don't recommend SMR for NAS."

Hattis Law has initiated a class action lawsuit against Western Digital, accordingly. The lawsuit alleges both that the SMR technology in the newer Western Digital Red drives is inappropriate for the marketed purpose of the drives and that Western Digital deliberately "deceived and harm[ed] consumers" in the course of doing so.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/05 ... s-channel/


Not sure where you purchased your HDDs from. Because depending on your situation, either you can get a full refund from your seller? or you opt to go down the RMA route? I use a local online marketplace where it is possible for a full refund within a limited time (once i receive my hdds, i always run full tests before actual usage, and also in case i needed to refund asap). Not sure about your situation, you best check what your options are.

I do have 2x WD 4tb EFRX which are not affected, but my recent 4tb hdd purchases were seagate ironwolf non pros, due to this scummy behaviour by WD :roll:
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

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Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:39 am

Strontium00 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:17 pm
Thanks for the reply and generic advice on RAID.
so what was your single hdd setup as originally? I doubt it was raid 1, since you need 2 hdds for that to work.
The original setup was a single 4TB HDD in bay 1, which I set up as a single thick volume by accepting the defaults in the setup wizard, after insertion. I can't remember specifically, but I think it was labeled "RAID Group 1", only one disk so definitely not RAID 1.

I understand that in my current configuration, if either disk fails, it will take the whole storage pool down with it?

The main issue is that the second HDD I added is showing up as "Raid Group 2", which gives me no options to implement RAID 1. Is there a way to resolve this without starting from scratch?
no idea about not having to start from scratch. maybe others can comment on that if they know.

i suggest you backup, then start from scratch aka reinitialize.

using 2 hdd you should only have 1 raid setup for that. not sure why you are seeing raid group 2 :'

raid is not a backup
https://www.reddit.com/r/qnap/comments/ ... _a_backup/


if you don't have a backup, i suggest getting a WD elements external usb.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

Strontium00
Starting out
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:41 am

Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Strontium00 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:59 am

Thanks for your help today guys!

I've decided to RMA the WD Red SMR drives and start from scratch. I've already reinitialised my NAS and put a an old 1GB Seagate laptop drive in bay 1 for now, so I can keep on exploring the NAS's functionality while I get replacement disks. I think I'll go for Seagate Iron Wolf this time!

One last thing, bit of thread drift sorry 🙂
Anybody know where to get replacement screws for mounting 3.5 and 2.5 drives in the caddies? My (second hand eBay) NAS came without any screws. I've got some from eBay, but they're not a completely flush fit.

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Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:53 am

Strontium00 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:59 am
Thanks for your help today guys!

I've decided to RMA the WD Red SMR drives and start from scratch. I've already reinitialised my NAS and put a an old 1GB Seagate laptop drive in bay 1 for now, so I can keep on exploring the NAS's functionality while I get replacement disks. I think I'll go for Seagate Iron Wolf this time!

One last thing, bit of thread drift sorry 🙂
Anybody know where to get replacement screws for mounting 3.5 and 2.5 drives in the caddies? My (second hand eBay) NAS came without any screws. I've got some from eBay, but they're not a completely flush fit.
to my understanding, WD rma means they give you replacement drives. they don't reimburse the money you bought it with. So if you get seagate ironwolf that would be more money spent.

It's ok to get replacement from wd, as long as they are NOT SMR.


If you can get fully money refund, then ya go for seagate, otherwise u end up spending more than you may want to.


and yeah sorry about thread drift it happens. found a issue while looking into the original :mrgreen:
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

Strontium00
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Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:41 am

Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Strontium00 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:06 am

Thanks again Moogle, I'll bear that in mind 👍

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Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:04 am

Strontium00 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:06 am
...
someone elses experienced rma wd drive
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=155776&start=15#p759207

:'
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

Strontium00
Starting out
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:41 am

Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Strontium00 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:47 pm

Update on events.

I've RMA'd the 2x WD 40 EFAX and received a 20% discount code for my trouble.

I've used the code on an order for 3x WD30 EFRX. New plan is RAID 5.

Thanks again for your help.

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Re: Newbie mistake on storage pool configuration

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:55 am

Strontium00 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:47 pm
Update on events.

I've RMA'd the 2x WD 40 EFAX and received a 20% discount code for my trouble.

I've used the code on an order for 3x WD30 EFRX. New plan is RAID 5.

Thanks again for your help.
you're welcome. glad things worked out for you :wink:
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
[Review] Moogle's TS-877 review
https://www.patreon.com/mooglestiltzkin

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